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Thoughts on Ethanol Fuel


Outdoor Power Equipment Discussion, Repairs, Buy or Sell

Outdoor power equipment discussions. Questions on commercial lawn mowers, lawn mower, mower parts, lawn tractors, engines, edgers, trimmers, pole saws, aerators, hydro seeders, snow plows, chain saws, stump grinders, trucks and trailers?
View Poll Results: Does your Gasonlie contain Ethanol?
No, Ethanol is not availabe in my area 2 20.00%
Yes, Ethanol blended gasoline is available but not mandatory 2 20.00%
Yes, 5% Ethanol/95% Gasoline Blended Fuel is Mandatory in my area 1 10.00%
Yes, 10% Ethanol/90% Gasoline Blended Fuel is Mandatory in my area 5 50.00%
Yes, But a different % of Ethanol/Gasoline Blend Fuel is Mandatory in my area 0 0%
Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

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  #11  
Old 06-29-2009, 05:58 PM
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I don't see the poll.

Steve
I found it!
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:02 PM
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This was announced a few hours ago:

http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/23/news...tune/index.htm
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  #13  
Old 09-05-2009, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by swstout View Post
From my files:

Top Ten Facts about Ethanol
Ethanol is listed as a known human carcinogen by the International Agency for Research on Cancer.


The cost of Reformulated Gasoline with ethanol will increase 3-6 cents per gallons compared to RFG with MTBE (see below).


Spills of pure ethanol or gasoline containing ethanol from leaking storage tanks can create a benzene plume up to 150% larger than a spill from a non-ethanol fuel.

Ethanol cannot be shipped by pipeline because of its high affinity for water posing significant distribution costs and hurdles for gasoline blenders.


According to a study by Cornell University, for every gallon of ethanol produced, 1.4 gallons of energy is consumed in the process, compared to 0.15 gallons used in the manufacture of gasoline.


It takes 1.5 gallons of ethanol (E-85) to drive as many miles as one gallon of gasoline.


Every gallon of ethanol removes 53 cents from the Federal Highway Trust Fund because of a special tax break for producers.

Ethanol increases the vapor pressure of gasoline by 1 psi. resulting in higher evaporative emissions of Volatile Organic Compounds, while tailpipe emissions of Acetaldehyde increase 150%.


Ethanol permeates the hoses and lines of automobile fuel systems resulting in a 50% increase in VOC emissions for pre 1995 cars.


Ethanol dissolves oxide scale from the walls of pipes and tanks, subjecting the systems to internal corrosion, which leads to leaks.
MTBE Extends Gasoline Supplies & Prevents Fuel Price Increases

The cleaner-burning gasoline additive Metyl Tertiary-Butyl Ether (MTBE) is an integral component of the nationís gasoline supply and has been vital in helping to minimize gasoline supply shortages. With current U.S. crude oil imports exceeding 50% of overall demand and U.S. refineries operating at full capacity, there is no margin for error with regard to gasoline supply. Banning or reducing the use of MTBE would further tighten gasoline supplies and substantially impact gasoline prices for consumers.
MTBE extends U.S. gasoline supplies Ė Up to 15 volume percent can be blended into finished gasoline. It is particularly valuable during refinery outages and distribution system disturbances when additional supplies are needed most.

MTBE use comprises over 4 volume percent of the overall U.S. gasoline pool; and in certain areas makes up over 10 volume percent of gasoline supply.

DOE estimates total U.S. gasoline production above 95% capacity. Any supply disruption or alterations would have serious gasoline supply impacts.

DOE concludes that removing MTBE from commerce will effectively reduce domestic gasoline supply by 550,000 barrels/day or roughly 6.8% of the total daily consumption of gasoline.


According to DOE, MTBE use is equivalent to gasoline production from five U.S. refineries.


MTBE is cost effective choice of refiners Ė 85% of RFG is blended with MTBE.

MTBE is a growing component of the nationís fuel supply, even in areas that have taken very aggressive action against the chemical. Record MTBE use has been reported in California during the past two summers.


Because MTBE is mainly produced from natural gas, it reduces dependence on foreign oil and is less susceptible to supply shocks. DOE reports that MTBE use makes up 71 percent of the alternative fuel use requirements contained in the Energy Policy Act of 1992.
A number of studies indicate that removing MTBE will significantly increase the cost of producing gasoline, further compounding any cost increases anticipated as a result of gasoline supply shortfalls, and substantially increasing gasoline prices for the consuming public:
The California Energy Commission describes an immediate MTBE phaseout as "catastrophic." CEC estimates the refiner cost of phasing out MTBE (in California only) to be at least 5 to 7 cents/gallon. California cost estimates are 10 to 20 cents/gallon for accelerated MTBE removal.


Turner Mason & Company estimated a national MTBE phaseout cost of about 4 to 8 cents/gallon without controls against air quality backsliding.

MathPro Inc. estimates national MTBE phaseout cost of about 4 to 6 cents/gallon above cost of California-only ban even with extensive air quality backsliding.


DOE estimates the cost of removing MTBE at about 2.5 to 7 cents/gallon (with RFG areas having an additional "substantial" price increase).


DOE informally estimated the cost of replacing MTBE with ethanol in the Northeast to be 3 cents/gallon Ė excluding significant investment costs and highway trust fund impacts.


Californiaís conversion to ethanol will cost an additional 4 cents per gallon for each gallon of ethanol blended into gasoline.
Using conservative estimates, the overall annual refinery production costs following MTBEís removal from gasoline is estimated to be $3.6 to $10.0 billion. This estimate does not reflect the ultimate price increases consumers will see at gasoline retail stations.

It should be noted that the impact on the U.S. gasoline and energy outlook could be more pronounced as a result of unplanned refinery outages and distribution system disruptions. This too, will aggravate already tight energy supplies and leave U.S. consumers paying substantially higher prices for gasoline.

MTBEís vehicle performance contributions, emissions reduction benefits, and stabilizing influence on the nationís gasoline supply have been well documented. More importantly, the health effects associated with its use in gasoline have been extensively studied by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), state health agencies, international health organizations, and leading research universities. These studies confirm that MTBE reduces toxic air pollutants such as benzene (a known human carcinogen); reduces carbon monoxide and greenhouse gas emissions; and substantially surpasses all Clean Air Act requirements for the reduction of smog forming compounds.

Ethanol Is Not a Suitable Replacement for MTBE

In 1990, Congress passed a law requiring fuel oxygenates Ė such as Methyl Tertiary-Butyl Ether (MTBE) and ethanol Ė to be added to Reformulated Gasoline (RFG) to reduce automotive emissions and improve the air we breathe. However, for a variety of economic, logistic and environmental reasons, refiners overwhelmingly favored MTBE over ethanol:

Gasoline Production Economics: Ethanol blends evaporate more readily than MTBE blends. Therefore, using ethanol increases refiner production costs and reduces operating flexibility. For example, the Chicago/Milwaukee ethanol market saw gasoline prices increase 25 cents/gallon over the national average during the summer of 2000. In addition, ethanol contributes about one half the blending volume provided by MTBE, and the maximum amount of ethanol that can be blended into gasoline is capped at 10% (versus 15% for MTBE). As a result, ethanol is unable to dilute many, less desirable, gasoline components.

Ethanolís Tax Subsidy: Ethanol is not economically viable without its substantial federal tax subsidy Ė currently 53 cents per gallon Ė and supplemental state tax incentives.

Supply Uncertainties & Distribution Concerns: Ethanol use is generally limited to the Midwest, with little capacity for expansion. Ethanol supplies can be uncertain due to feedstock (i.e., corn) shortages caused by summer droughts. Ethanolís high affinity for water does not allow blending at the refinery, nor transportation through the existing nation-wide gasoline pipeline infrastructure. Ethanol must be stored in segregated tanks, can only be transported by rail or truck and must be blended into gasoline at the terminal or retail station.

Environmental Concerns: Ethanol emits more harmful smog-forming emissions in the summertime than MTBE due to its high tendency to evaporate. Because ethanol is used in lower volumes, it provides less reduction in toxic air emissions than MTBE. Ethanol also can contribute to increased NOx emissions.

Consumer Acceptance: Automaker owner manuals warn buyers of performance problems with ethanol. Some consumers perceive ethanol-blended gasoline or "gasohol" as an "inferior product."

In addition, energy security implications and consumer costs remain a concern as ethanolís role in future national energy policy is debated:
Ethanolís federal tax subsidy currently reduces money for state road maintenance and transportation infrastructure by over $1.1 billion/year. If ethanol were used to replace MTBE, this figure would grow to over $3.5 billion/year.

MTBE supplies 2.5 times more non-petroleum energy into the nationís gasoline pool than ethanol (at the same oxygen content), thus increasing overall gasoline supplies.


Despite its "renewable fuel" billing, producing ethanol consumes as much energy as it yields as a finished fuel. Lower fuel economy (by as much as 2-5 %) should be expected for ethanol blended gasoline versus conventional, or MTBE-blended, gasoline.


Increasing the use of ethanol would increase the fragility of our nationís gasoline supply outlook and potentially result in a net increase of crude and product imports.


Calls to triple the required use of ethanol would cost U.S. consumers $17 billion over the next nine years.


The large ethanol subsidy generally benefits the large agri-business interests rather than average farmers.
Ethanolís use is uneconomic without a large government subsidy and, outside of the Midwest, it can not be integrated into the nationís gasoline supply and transportation system. Increased reliance on ethanol would result in air quality backsliding. And, most importantly, it can destabilize the nationís gasoline supply without offering significant energy security benefits and without even benefiting Americaís farmers.

Steve
 
Steve I was reading this thread again and started reading this post and was wondering if you know its source? I am interested in using some of this info in my article but want to be able to properly quote it as far as the original source.

Since I posted the original request I have learned so much on the topic it is astounding...

BTW, any members who have not yet posted or voted please do so.

Thanks,
Eli
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  #14  
Old 09-06-2009, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by SuperiorPower View Post
Steve I was reading this thread again and started reading this post and was wondering if you know its source? I am interested in using some of this info in my article but want to be able to properly quote it as far as the original source.

Since I posted the original request I have learned so much on the topic it is astounding...

BTW, any members who have not yet posted or voted please do so.

Thanks,
Eli
Hi Eli,

While finishing up my masters degree, I did a paper on the "Global Warming" farce. The data I posted was from my notes. Because I was doing so at a very liberal college - one that professed that combating global warming was the new religion - I didn't submit it. I submitted a paper on coded data statistical process control instead (I waned the degree). I figured if I demigoded American manufacturing there was a better route for success. I compared the evil capitalist system of manufacturing to the quality based Japanese system. I got my degree!

Unfortunately, I kept the notes but not the sources. I did however get all the data by using Goggle. I used something like " problems with ethanol" as my search criteria.

Hope this helps.

Steve

BTW, go to
http://www.noteviljustwrong.com/ and do your part.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:00 PM
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Ethanol in my opinion is the biggest fleecing of the American bread n butter earner/tax payer in the history of this country...
We have it in Iowa and go out of my way not to buy it. Proven poor performer!

If ethanol has commercial merit, it doesn't need the subsidy. If it doesn't, no amount of subsidy will bestow it. And that's the truth.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:07 PM
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MTBE is also very controversial & alarming additive. I perfer neither
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:46 PM
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Default Biggest fleecing? Wait for Cap and Trade

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawncrafter56 View Post
Ethanol in my opinion is the biggest fleecing of the American bread n butter earner/tax payer in the history of this country...
We have it in Iowa and go out of my way not to buy it. Proven poor performer!

If ethanol has commercial merit, it doesn't need the subsidy. If it doesn't, no amount of subsidy will bestow it. And that's the truth.
Even the GAO (Government Accounting Office) predicts that Cap and Trade will raise costs by $65 per week for every American Family. If it uses any form of energy it will cost you more. Manufacturing (I'm using as an example) like all other industries will pay more for raw materials (it takes energy to get then, having the raw materials shipped to them, Manufacturing their products (energy intensive), packaging the products (they too must be packaged, and then again to ship out their products. At least 6 price increases before the product is shipped to where you will purchase it (at an inflated cost).

Where are you going to come up with that extra $65.00 a week?

Steve
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Old 09-06-2009, 02:08 PM
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So true Steve.. I only see a fraction of the transportation handling of Corn base Ethanol right here in Iowa. Make me wonder how the hell it's feasable! But it's good for jobs here in Iowa! Hop on the bandwagon politics as usual.... tag on the subsidy to corn farmers to grow it ..MILLLIONS ..along with the continued taxpayer gifts provided by those gift horses we elect to the processors "POET" for R&D which is probably dulicated from research of other countries.

If the Obama Demo experiment is left unquestioned by the media they will bancrupt this country in his 1 term.

The citizens of this country have to much to loose with this whole economic experiment of economic equality for all

As wisely as forum memeber majoe7 said If we care...speak out .

Last edited by lawncrafter56; 09-06-2009 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 09-06-2009, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by lawncrafter56 View Post
So true Steve.. I only see a fraction of the transportation handling of Corn base Ethanol right here in Iowa. Make me wonder how the hell it's feasable! But it's good for jobs here in Iowa! Hop on the bandwagon politics as usual.... tag on the subsidy to corn farmers to grow it ..MILLLIONS ..along with the continued taxpayer gifts provided by those gift horses we elect to the processors "POET" for R&D which is probably dulicated from research of other countries.

If the Obama Demo experiment is left unquestioned by the media they will bancrupt this country in his 1 term.

The citizens of this country have to much to loose with this whole economic experiment of economic equality for all

As wisely as forum memeber majoe7 said If we care...speak out .
Global Warming Histeria GWH)

Did you know that China and India are building a coal powered energy plant every 3 days? Why, they want the manufacturing jobs to all go there. Manufacturing is what made America great. Global warming histeria is outsorcing (a dirty work in the Obama government) all manufacturing jobs to India and China. Taxpayer funded government jobs can't continue if only the service sector jobs are left.

Find out the true costs of GWH. Go to http://www.noteviljustwrong.com/

Do your thing! Let Washington know their party is over!

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Old 09-06-2009, 08:36 PM
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Well, let me tell you, I could not care less about "going green" etc.... I think I spoke my mind pretty well about that in the past. To see how I really feel about emissions and Al Gore's bologna, see my post here. I think that is what killed that thread!

I think anyone with half a mind and who pays any attention to whats going on around them will know Al Gore is a media WHORE.... I can't stand the sight of his face. He is such a liar. What most people don't know is that Al gore uses more propane to heat his mansion in ONE MONTH than the average American FAMILY does in an ENTIRE YEAR! Than you figure in all his airplane use, being driven around in big vehicles, etc... It really is an "inconvenient truth" for him.

When it comes to the whole corn/ethanol thing, let me mention that the only good thing for the farmers is that they sell more corn. Maybe. The only person really making out on this is the owners of the Ethanol plants. It did bring in some more jobs. But at what cost? It makes NO sense to support ethanol when you look at the big picture. I personally believe we need to fire the people who voted this stuff in and vote us in some new people. Perhaps some Constitution party people. Someone who remembers that they are supposed to represent us and someone who is willing to stand on the Constitution. It's there for a reason afterall...

I watched a video on Youtube sometime ago and the guy was talking about the "non-representing representatives"..... Truer words have never been spoken.

Let me tell you, from a mechanic's perspective, let me tell you, ethanol is a HORRIBLE thing..... I am still reeling from some of the info I recently learned. And the people who are behind Ethanol knew this information without a doubt before they brought it out...... These people have only one thing in mind, lining their pockets with your and my money....
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