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Thoughts on Ethanol Fuel


Truck, Trailer, and Outdoor Power Equipment Discussion, Repairs.

Questions on your truck, trailer, commercial lawn mowers, lawn mower, mower parts, lawn tractors, engines, edgers, trimmers, pole saws, aerators, hydro seeders, snow plows, chain saws, stump grinders??
View Poll Results: Does your Gasonlie contain Ethanol?
No, Ethanol is not availabe in my area 2 20.00%
Yes, Ethanol blended gasoline is available but not mandatory 2 20.00%
Yes, 5% Ethanol/95% Gasoline Blended Fuel is Mandatory in my area 1 10.00%
Yes, 10% Ethanol/90% Gasoline Blended Fuel is Mandatory in my area 5 50.00%
Yes, But a different % of Ethanol/Gasoline Blend Fuel is Mandatory in my area 0 0%
Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 06-29-2009, 02:29 AM
SuperiorPower
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Default Thoughts on Ethanol Fuel

What are your thoughts on Ethanol fuel?

Are they good?

Are there any pitfalls of using Ethanol?

Do you know of any problems that are caused by Ethanol?

Does your state (or province) mandate ethanol? If so, you please tell me what state you live in?

****************************
Ok, you guessed, I am not asking these questions as blind questions. Rather, I am try to determine the current knowledge level with Ethanol and the problems associated with it. In the near future (within the next week or so) I will be posting an article on my forum about Ethanol Fuel. I'll let you guys know about it when I post it.

In the mean time, could you guys answer the above questions for my research on the matter?

Thanks,
Eli
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  #2  
Old 06-29-2009, 04:37 AM
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Ethanol is not available here in Nova Scotia, at least to the best of my knowledge.

Based on what I have herd on the news and read in the paper my personal concern is the higher cost of food. Diverting food items such as corn has increased the price....I do still follow the stock market. I have read many environmental organizations have raised concerns about the increased inputs of energy, pesticides, and fertilizer to grow more corn. The price of corn has doubled in three years in large part due to increased demand for ethanol because of government-mandated fuel-level regulations both here in Canada and the USA.

I read it is also more expensive to use in the summer, it contributes to smog and in several areas it can be used only with a costlier base blend that helps overcome this.

I know a local fairly large oil refinery has been making bio diesel from fish oil, they have to use Ethanol in this, two years ago they run it in the city bus's for the summer and it was a disaster.

Anyhow I am all for renewable resources but not at the expense of the economy, think of the millions without food, there are other ways to go about this, mandate better fuel economy vehicles, higher tax on the gas guzzlers etc.
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Old 06-29-2009, 05:31 AM
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I can't remember the last time I saw a gas station that sold ethanol!
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:23 AM
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Here in Florida ethanol is at every gas station. 10% is blended with the regular gas. The station has to post a sign on the pumps stating this fact.
There is a problem they are discovering with the use of this product. After time if you don't use what you have stored it will break down and particles will settle at the bottom of the tank, the next time you go and use your machine/car it mixes up and clogs fuel lines , leaves deposits in you carberator. This is becoming a big problem and an expensive repair bill to the consumers. I just had to have my carb. rebuilt on my boat at the tune of $400. They say and I did regularly add fuel stablizer to the gas and I assume that hasn't been helpful. I also add it to my gas for my lawn care. You never know. BTW price for a gallon of gas here now is $2.56 per gallon 87 octange.
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:56 AM
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Ethanol is bad for engines. Especially small engines. Especially small 2-stroke engines. I hate the stuff.
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  #6  
Old 06-29-2009, 07:41 AM
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Default The wrong choice

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperiorPower View Post
What are your thoughts on Ethanol fuel?

Are they good?

Are there any pitfalls of using Ethanol?

Do you know of any problems that are caused by Ethanol?

Does your state (or province) mandate ethanol? If so, you please tell me what state you live in?

****************************
Ok, you guessed, I am not asking these questions as blind questions. Rather, I am try to determine the current knowledge level with Ethanol and the problems associated with it. In the near future (within the next week or so) I will be posting an article on my forum about Ethanol Fuel. I'll let you guys know about it when I post it.

In the mean time, could you guys answer the above questions for my research on the matter?

Thanks,
Eli
From my files:

Top Ten Facts about Ethanol
Ethanol is listed as a known human carcinogen by the International Agency for Research on Cancer.


The cost of Reformulated Gasoline with ethanol will increase 3-6 cents per gallons compared to RFG with MTBE (see below).


Spills of pure ethanol or gasoline containing ethanol from leaking storage tanks can create a benzene plume up to 150% larger than a spill from a non-ethanol fuel.

Ethanol cannot be shipped by pipeline because of its high affinity for water posing significant distribution costs and hurdles for gasoline blenders.


According to a study by Cornell University, for every gallon of ethanol produced, 1.4 gallons of energy is consumed in the process, compared to 0.15 gallons used in the manufacture of gasoline.


It takes 1.5 gallons of ethanol (E-85) to drive as many miles as one gallon of gasoline.


Every gallon of ethanol removes 53 cents from the Federal Highway Trust Fund because of a special tax break for producers.

Ethanol increases the vapor pressure of gasoline by 1 psi. resulting in higher evaporative emissions of Volatile Organic Compounds, while tailpipe emissions of Acetaldehyde increase 150%.


Ethanol permeates the hoses and lines of automobile fuel systems resulting in a 50% increase in VOC emissions for pre 1995 cars.


Ethanol dissolves oxide scale from the walls of pipes and tanks, subjecting the systems to internal corrosion, which leads to leaks.
MTBE Extends Gasoline Supplies & Prevents Fuel Price Increases

The cleaner-burning gasoline additive Metyl Tertiary-Butyl Ether (MTBE) is an integral component of the nation’s gasoline supply and has been vital in helping to minimize gasoline supply shortages. With current U.S. crude oil imports exceeding 50% of overall demand and U.S. refineries operating at full capacity, there is no margin for error with regard to gasoline supply. Banning or reducing the use of MTBE would further tighten gasoline supplies and substantially impact gasoline prices for consumers.
MTBE extends U.S. gasoline supplies – Up to 15 volume percent can be blended into finished gasoline. It is particularly valuable during refinery outages and distribution system disturbances when additional supplies are needed most.

MTBE use comprises over 4 volume percent of the overall U.S. gasoline pool; and in certain areas makes up over 10 volume percent of gasoline supply.

DOE estimates total U.S. gasoline production above 95% capacity. Any supply disruption or alterations would have serious gasoline supply impacts.

DOE concludes that removing MTBE from commerce will effectively reduce domestic gasoline supply by 550,000 barrels/day or roughly 6.8% of the total daily consumption of gasoline.


According to DOE, MTBE use is equivalent to gasoline production from five U.S. refineries.


MTBE is cost effective choice of refiners – 85% of RFG is blended with MTBE.

MTBE is a growing component of the nation’s fuel supply, even in areas that have taken very aggressive action against the chemical. Record MTBE use has been reported in California during the past two summers.


Because MTBE is mainly produced from natural gas, it reduces dependence on foreign oil and is less susceptible to supply shocks. DOE reports that MTBE use makes up 71 percent of the alternative fuel use requirements contained in the Energy Policy Act of 1992.
A number of studies indicate that removing MTBE will significantly increase the cost of producing gasoline, further compounding any cost increases anticipated as a result of gasoline supply shortfalls, and substantially increasing gasoline prices for the consuming public:
The California Energy Commission describes an immediate MTBE phaseout as "catastrophic." CEC estimates the refiner cost of phasing out MTBE (in California only) to be at least 5 to 7 cents/gallon. California cost estimates are 10 to 20 cents/gallon for accelerated MTBE removal.


Turner Mason & Company estimated a national MTBE phaseout cost of about 4 to 8 cents/gallon without controls against air quality backsliding.

MathPro Inc. estimates national MTBE phaseout cost of about 4 to 6 cents/gallon above cost of California-only ban even with extensive air quality backsliding.


DOE estimates the cost of removing MTBE at about 2.5 to 7 cents/gallon (with RFG areas having an additional "substantial" price increase).


DOE informally estimated the cost of replacing MTBE with ethanol in the Northeast to be 3 cents/gallon – excluding significant investment costs and highway trust fund impacts.


California’s conversion to ethanol will cost an additional 4 cents per gallon for each gallon of ethanol blended into gasoline.
Using conservative estimates, the overall annual refinery production costs following MTBE’s removal from gasoline is estimated to be $3.6 to $10.0 billion. This estimate does not reflect the ultimate price increases consumers will see at gasoline retail stations.

It should be noted that the impact on the U.S. gasoline and energy outlook could be more pronounced as a result of unplanned refinery outages and distribution system disruptions. This too, will aggravate already tight energy supplies and leave U.S. consumers paying substantially higher prices for gasoline.

MTBE’s vehicle performance contributions, emissions reduction benefits, and stabilizing influence on the nation’s gasoline supply have been well documented. More importantly, the health effects associated with its use in gasoline have been extensively studied by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), state health agencies, international health organizations, and leading research universities. These studies confirm that MTBE reduces toxic air pollutants such as benzene (a known human carcinogen); reduces carbon monoxide and greenhouse gas emissions; and substantially surpasses all Clean Air Act requirements for the reduction of smog forming compounds.

Ethanol Is Not a Suitable Replacement for MTBE

In 1990, Congress passed a law requiring fuel oxygenates – such as Methyl Tertiary-Butyl Ether (MTBE) and ethanol – to be added to Reformulated Gasoline (RFG) to reduce automotive emissions and improve the air we breathe. However, for a variety of economic, logistic and environmental reasons, refiners overwhelmingly favored MTBE over ethanol:

Gasoline Production Economics: Ethanol blends evaporate more readily than MTBE blends. Therefore, using ethanol increases refiner production costs and reduces operating flexibility. For example, the Chicago/Milwaukee ethanol market saw gasoline prices increase 25 cents/gallon over the national average during the summer of 2000. In addition, ethanol contributes about one half the blending volume provided by MTBE, and the maximum amount of ethanol that can be blended into gasoline is capped at 10% (versus 15% for MTBE). As a result, ethanol is unable to dilute many, less desirable, gasoline components.

Ethanol’s Tax Subsidy: Ethanol is not economically viable without its substantial federal tax subsidy – currently 53 cents per gallon – and supplemental state tax incentives.

Supply Uncertainties & Distribution Concerns: Ethanol use is generally limited to the Midwest, with little capacity for expansion. Ethanol supplies can be uncertain due to feedstock (i.e., corn) shortages caused by summer droughts. Ethanol’s high affinity for water does not allow blending at the refinery, nor transportation through the existing nation-wide gasoline pipeline infrastructure. Ethanol must be stored in segregated tanks, can only be transported by rail or truck and must be blended into gasoline at the terminal or retail station.

Environmental Concerns: Ethanol emits more harmful smog-forming emissions in the summertime than MTBE due to its high tendency to evaporate. Because ethanol is used in lower volumes, it provides less reduction in toxic air emissions than MTBE. Ethanol also can contribute to increased NOx emissions.

Consumer Acceptance: Automaker owner manuals warn buyers of performance problems with ethanol. Some consumers perceive ethanol-blended gasoline or "gasohol" as an "inferior product."

In addition, energy security implications and consumer costs remain a concern as ethanol’s role in future national energy policy is debated:
Ethanol’s federal tax subsidy currently reduces money for state road maintenance and transportation infrastructure by over $1.1 billion/year. If ethanol were used to replace MTBE, this figure would grow to over $3.5 billion/year.

MTBE supplies 2.5 times more non-petroleum energy into the nation’s gasoline pool than ethanol (at the same oxygen content), thus increasing overall gasoline supplies.


Despite its "renewable fuel" billing, producing ethanol consumes as much energy as it yields as a finished fuel. Lower fuel economy (by as much as 2-5 %) should be expected for ethanol blended gasoline versus conventional, or MTBE-blended, gasoline.


Increasing the use of ethanol would increase the fragility of our nation’s gasoline supply outlook and potentially result in a net increase of crude and product imports.


Calls to triple the required use of ethanol would cost U.S. consumers $17 billion over the next nine years.


The large ethanol subsidy generally benefits the large agri-business interests rather than average farmers.
Ethanol’s use is uneconomic without a large government subsidy and, outside of the Midwest, it can not be integrated into the nation’s gasoline supply and transportation system. Increased reliance on ethanol would result in air quality backsliding. And, most importantly, it can destabilize the nation’s gasoline supply without offering significant energy security benefits and without even benefiting America’s farmers.

Steve
 
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  #7  
Old 06-29-2009, 09:07 AM
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Default ethanol is a crock

We have 10% ethanol in our gasoline here in Wisconsin .
We also have some stations that carry E85 which is 85% ethanol.
My GMC truck will run on this however I will not use it. It is about 25 cents less
per gallon than regular gas however your mileage is about 25% less so it's a wash at best using the stuff.
I have noticed over the years since they went to 10% ethanol that my small engines (carburators, fuel lines etc). have needed more maintenance. For equipment that you don't use at least weekly you better have stabil mixed in the gas or you could have problems.

My biggest gripe with the stuff is that it raises the cost of food. I fail to see how it will reduce our dependency on foreign oil.

I could go on but all the global warming radicals seem to have all the answers.

Last edited by turfmaster; 06-29-2009 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 06-29-2009, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoe7 View Post
Here in Florida ethanol is at every gas station. 10% is blended with the regular gas. The station has to post a sign on the pumps stating this fact.
There is a problem they are discovering with the use of this product. After time if you don't use what you have stored it will break down and particles will settle at the bottom of the tank, the next time you go and use your machine/car it mixes up and clogs fuel lines , leaves deposits in you carberator. This is becoming a big problem and an expensive repair bill to the consumers. I just had to have my carb. rebuilt on my boat at the tune of $400. They say and I did regularly add fuel stablizer to the gas and I assume that hasn't been helpful. I also add it to my gas for my lawn care. You never know. BTW price for a gallon of gas here now is $2.56 per gallon 87 octange.
From my experience, All of my 2 cycle machines now bog when started...Although my mowers arent affected by it..A buddy of mine that I met online that is a certified small engine mechanic (Works for mower shop in N. Fla) suggested I run 93 octane in my 2 cycle stuff... He also said if I dont, In due time, the carbs will all need rebuilt..

I havent run 93 yet, but I do add 1/4 cup of sea foam to my mixed and 1/2 cup to each tank on my mower..Although my 2 cycle still bogs, I havent had any other problems since I started adding sea foam to the fuel 3 years ago..
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Old 06-29-2009, 05:51 PM
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Thanks for the response guys. I added a poll to this thread. Please take the time to vote on it. And I would also like to see what state you live in and whether or not Ethanol is mandatory there.
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Old 06-29-2009, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperiorPower View Post
Thanks for the response guys. I added a poll to this thread. Please take the time to vote on it. And I would also like to see what state you live in and whether or not Ethanol is mandatory there.
I don't see the poll.

Steve
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