Lawn Care Business Forum Lawn Care Business Book Lawn Care Business Blog Lawn Care Software
Home Forum Contract & Flyer Templates Blog Software Videos Podcast Calculators / Estimators Store Mower Review Design It Yourself Lawn Business School

Go Back   GopherHaul Landscaping & Lawn Care Business Marketing Forum > Lawn Care, Landscaping, and Property Management Forums > Health, Safety and Accident Issues.

Health, Safety and Accident Issues. Discussion on health & safety issues that effect the lawn care, landscaping, tree care, power washing, snow plowing and other trades. Talks of accidents that have occurred and how they could have been prevented. OSHA rules.

My SCAG Tiget cub burst into FLAMES today!!


Health, Safety and Accident Issues.

Discussion on health & safety issues that effect the lawn care, landscaping, tree care, power washing, snow plowing and other trades. Talks of accidents that have occurred and how they could have been prevented. OSHA rules.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #11  
Old 05-31-2009, 09:48 PM
SuperiorPower
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I understand what you are saying about the investment and now, nothing.... $6,500 is a lot of money to watch it burn up. I hope Scag makes it right with you. Like you said, heck, you could have been in or near your house and garage.

As far as the vacuum operated part, I think that would work. The other thing would be have an electronic fuel solenoid at the gas tank, similar to what is already being used by many manufacturers on the carburetor. For example, on carbs, when the engine is shut off, the solenoid stops fuel flow into the venturi thus effectively shutting the engine off even if the ignition part does not shut the engine off. Now this is not effective if the carburetor float is leaking and running gas over into the venturi. This solenoid is currently used basically as an "anti-dieseling" solenoid to eliminate the problems that some engines had with continuing to run (aka, dieseling) even after the spark was interrupted. I see no reason why a similar solenoid could not be used at the gas tank. Granted, the design would have to be right otherwise it could leak or break there and be no better despite the solenoid.

BTW, as far as a replacement mower, I would consider the Hustler line if you decide to not reinvest in Scag.

Just hang in there and just let us know what happens.
Reply With Quote

Stop guess-timating. Learn how to estimate and make money! $$$
Mow Time Estimator Lawn Care Price Estimator Mulch and Topsoil Calculator Snow Plow Estimate Calculator


  #12  
Old 06-01-2009, 05:19 AM
kb9nvh kb9nvh is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 25
Rep Power: 6
kb9nvh is on a distinguished road
Default

Lawn care business tipsLawn Care Business Book
I can see where and electronic solenoid would work but the engine key would have to be turned off for the positive shut off. The idea of the vacuum shut of is that if the engine stops running for whatever reason, then fuel is stopped from flowing. In my case, since apparently a fuel line came loose, when the engine stopped running it would have been nice for the fuel to stop dumping as well. Maybe it would have gone out on its own once the initial gasoline had burned off?


I'll be contacting my insurance and SCAG again today to find out where I stand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperiorPower View Post
I understand what you are saying about the investment and now, nothing.... $6,500 is a lot of money to watch it burn up. I hope Scag makes it right with you. Like you said, heck, you could have been in or near your house and garage.

As far as the vacuum operated part, I think that would work. The other thing would be have an electronic fuel solenoid at the gas tank, similar to what is already being used by many manufacturers on the carburetor. For example, on carbs, when the engine is shut off, the solenoid stops fuel flow into the venturi thus effectively shutting the engine off even if the ignition part does not shut the engine off. Now this is not effective if the carburetor float is leaking and running gas over into the venturi. This solenoid is currently used basically as an "anti-dieseling" solenoid to eliminate the problems that some engines had with continuing to run (aka, dieseling) even after the spark was interrupted. I see no reason why a similar solenoid could not be used at the gas tank. Granted, the design would have to be right otherwise it could leak or break there and be no better despite the solenoid.

BTW, as far as a replacement mower, I would consider the Hustler line if you decide to not reinvest in Scag.

Just hang in there and just let us know what happens.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-01-2009, 06:34 AM
SuperiorPower
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb9nvh View Post
I can see where and electronic solenoid would work but the engine key would have to be turned off for the positive shut off.

I'll be contacting my insurance and SCAG again today to find out where I stand.
Actually, no. Just like the lights on some mowers operate only when the engine is running because it is based on the alternator. The solenoid would only activate when the engine is running and creating an electrical current. Or better yet, it could be activated by a seat safety switch which would be activated only if the operator is sitting on the mower seat. I personally would rather use an electronic than a vacuum operated mechanism since vacuum lines can, and will, get leaks and would thus become defective just because of old age and would be difficult and expensive to diagnose. I personally believe that an electronic system would be more stable.

However, with all of this being said, this would likely add an easy several $100 to the cost of a mower (and also a lot of headache). And I am not sure how effective it would be. When you think about it, the fuel line comes off the engine and starts dumping fuel where ever, which causes a fire. What is going to cause the engine to shut off? The primarily reason for the engine to shut off is if the key is turned off or the engine runs out of fuel. Unfortunately the engine does not shut off as soon as the fuel stops entering the carburetor (and thank goodness for this!!). Let me tell you, the engine can run for a short while (up to 30 seconds or more) just on the fuel that is still in the carburetor and as long as the engine is running, whether vacuum operated or electronic via the alternator, we are in the same boat. Even if the mower had a vacuum or electronic fuel shut off at the gas tank that shuts off as soon as the engine shuts off, just remember, it will not shut off until the carburetor runs out of fuel which by that time can be too late. By now the fire can have burned the fuel line back to the fuel tank. Today, most fuel tanks are plastic and by the time the engine shuts off the fire can have burned the fuel line back to the gas tank and have melted the gas tank and then all the gas in the tank is on fire. At this point no safety system is effective.

Plus, most mowers today have a fuel pump (almost invariably, they are mounted to the engine and are vacuum operated) and as long as the engine is running, it will continue to pump fuel, unless of course the fuel line is disconnected between the engine and the fuel pump. Absent a fuel pump, we are looking at a gravity flow fuel supply system that will continue dumping fuel onto the problem until there is no more fuel.

Let us know what you find out,
Eli
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-01-2009, 12:25 PM
kb9nvh kb9nvh is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 25
Rep Power: 6
kb9nvh is on a distinguished road
Default

Well, I'm sure there are multiple scenarios that could be worked out and the cheapest one that fixes the problem would be the one that gets used.
I know on my 1981 Honda silverwing they used a vacuum operated pet**** at the tank. No engine runny/No gas flowy. You are right that eventually the lines will crack and a vacuum leak will result...But thats the case with every rubber hose on the thing.

The main idea is to stop gas flowing by gravity if a catastrophic fuel line leak somehow occurs.

Here's how my fire played out....
1) smell of raw gas (assume fuel line failure here)
2) 5 or 10 seconds later engine stalls (remaining fuel from carb exhausted)
3) 20 or 30 seconds later engine area explodes in flames. (fuel running from broken line runs from down around engine and flows off back engine deck (gravity) and hits hot muffler...flames travel back to fuel source.

If fuel had cut off when the engine had stopped the fire would have either not occurred or maybe self extinguished.

Also, If you look at my photos you will see that the plastic tanks did not melt where the gas was in contact with the inside of the tank...The tanks melted on the tops, where there was no gas in contact with the plastic, and then the gas fumes burned from those holes once they melted open. I had two nearly full tanks of gas. When the fire was put out 35 minutes later the tanks still had gas in them and maybe still half full. (for 20 of those minutes the firemen were spraying copious amounts of water over the whole mower but the flames would not go out until a dry chemical extinguisher was used.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-01-2009, 04:24 PM
kb9nvh kb9nvh is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 25
Rep Power: 6
kb9nvh is on a distinguished road
Default

SCAG contacted me today...They want to work WITH my insurance company to an equitable solution. (whatever that means for me).

Fair to me would be if I end up with a 60 hour equivalent tiger cub back or better and out no deductible.
I told my insurance company about the past recall on this type of mower and that I felt SCAG should replace this due to the type of failure it was. I could have been seriously hurt and SCAG has the responsibility to produce a safe product and liability for the consequences of a mishap.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-01-2009, 05:26 PM
SuperiorPower
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hopefully everything will work out with Scag. It would be nice if they chose to give you a new one, plus some accessories due to the danger to you and the inconvenience.

You are right about the safety issue. You know it does not matter how good or how perfect a safety device is, if it is not installed then it is no good. A crummy device that is installed would be better than a perfect one that is not installed. Perhaps you could work with Scag to incorporate a safety valve on future models?

Let us know what happens in the coming days.

Good luck,
Eli
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-02-2009, 11:02 PM
tomustang
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
This does make me wonder if there are more mowers out there catching on fire like this and we just don't know about it.
Steve,


They are all over youtube, I was looking for videos of ztr's and "my tiger cub on fire" was showing up..
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-02-2009, 11:51 PM
Steve's Avatar
Steve Steve is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 36,181
Rep Power: 10
Steve has disabled reputation
Default

That is amazing!
__________________
- Subscribe to my Lawn Care Marketing Blog Feed and get daily tips sent to you. Free!
Download your Free trial of Gopher Lawn Care Software.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-03-2009, 12:24 AM
Steve W's Avatar
Steve W Steve W is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SOWEGA
Age: 48
Posts: 103
Rep Power: 6
Steve W is on a distinguished road
Default

Glad you didnt get hurt. I know one thing for sure, this has made me check my fuel line and it was cracked.It had to be replaced.
Thanks for sharing this with us.
__________________
<a href="http://www.gopherforum.com/index.php?pageid=GopherHaul-Lawn-Care-Business-School&graduate=661b304af1800fad86a3828c8bcbb737">
<img src="http://www.gopherforum.com/uploaded-files/images/school-logo-banner.gif" border="0">
</a>
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-05-2009, 08:21 PM
kb9nvh kb9nvh is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 25
Rep Power: 6
kb9nvh is on a distinguished road
Default

To close out the SCAG part of this thread..SCAG has made its final decision.
They are willing to sell me a tiger cat for 6200 + tx. I'm guessing that's about 800 less than what most folks can get one for...Unfortunately, the price still puts me out 1K of insurance deductible.

So, SCAG has made a minor gesture towards helping me but nothing close to replacing the mower.

So, since I have to pay minimum 1K, and insurance will pay "replacement value" I'll be buying up and into a different brand.

I'll have the old 48" deck probably still good to sell as well as most of the front parts of the mower...could be that drive motors are good too but will have to take a look.

Thanks everyone for following this thread. I consider the matter closed but would invite anyone to continue to post their experiences with SCAG or any other mower that may have an potential fatal flaw. I've been chastised, in another forum, for not keeping up with my preventative maintenance (although I have met or exceeded whats listed in the manual).

When its your business or your life on the line I think it prudent to do more and now I know that both are at risk and that the manufacture wont do much to back you up.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
26 HP Briggs \ Scag zak Outdoor Power Equipment Discussion, Repairs, Buy or Sell 10 10-19-2011 07:45 PM
Scag 48" Tiger Cub aggielandscaper Outdoor Power Equipment Discussion, Repairs, Buy or Sell 4 11-22-2009 09:51 PM
Scag or Exmark? arcada Starting a lawn care business. 6 08-26-2008 10:36 AM
German Scag Mowers avigliano Outdoor Power Equipment Discussion, Repairs, Buy or Sell 8 02-05-2008 09:30 AM
Are we in for a bubble burst? Steve General Business Discussions 2 06-08-2006 09:33 PM

» Recent Threads
  RatingTitle, Username, & Date Last Post Replies Views
Left handed edging with...
SGL1
Today 08:59 PM
Today 08:59 PM
by SGL1
0 16
Need help determining...
Jbss861
07-20-2014 02:33 PM
Today 08:51 PM
by SGL1
11 236
Got my first lawn job...
SGL1
06-11-2014 09:19 PM
Today 08:47 PM
by SGL1
27 1,112
Customer letters
kslawn
Today 06:17 AM
Today 06:17 PM
by kslawn
2 62
Crop Rotation Techniques...
eastsidelandcare
07-17-2014 03:47 PM
Today 05:53 PM
by eastsidelandcare
2 130
Selling lawns like...
eastsidelandcare
07-17-2014 03:51 PM
Today 05:49 PM
by eastsidelandcare
2 169
Scag new "Eliminator"......
ExtremeLawncareServices
07-20-2014 10:45 AM
Today 05:37 PM
by Just for Cuts
9 206
These are the days on...
ExtremeLawncareServices
03-22-2014 09:12 AM
Today 03:55 PM
by stevef1201
75 4,275
Should I ?
googus
Yesterday 04:06 PM
Today 03:48 PM
by googus
3 111
need professional advice...
Fiddlers_green
07-20-2014 07:21 PM
Today 12:42 PM
by Steve
3 139
new to me box truck
jrayb39667
03-06-2014 10:20 PM
Today 12:40 PM
by Steve
15 1,315
My First Apartment...
SSLCtn
05-26-2014 10:17 PM
Today 12:14 PM
by Steve
14 820
Lawn Service back in...
LawnCareMan280
07-18-2014 09:00 PM
Today 11:48 AM
by Steve
4 175
Overspray?
stevef1201
07-21-2014 04:20 PM
Today 11:39 AM
by Steve
3 84
Hello Everyone! Newbie...
SLKlawn
07-17-2014 06:22 PM
Yesterday 01:53 PM
by Steve
6 207
Proper height for lawn
rob lederhilger
05-26-2014 08:01 AM
07-21-2014 02:53 PM
by LawnDoctor
9 607
Blade sharpener
Just for Cuts
07-04-2014 12:31 PM
07-21-2014 01:48 PM
by Steve
9 446
What's my business worth?
Chaz
07-16-2014 01:35 PM
07-21-2014 01:45 PM
by Steve
4 222
Single tree, mow customer
WesleySnips
06-27-2014 10:12 AM
07-21-2014 01:04 PM
by Steve
12 497
1.5 Acre Jungle
WesleySnips
07-15-2014 05:57 PM
07-20-2014 11:31 AM
by ExtremeLawncareServices
21 520
Gopher schedule software
Ray
07-18-2014 04:13 PM
07-18-2014 04:13 PM
by Ray
0 113
2006 Chevy fuel pump...
KevinsLawns
07-17-2014 08:39 PM
07-18-2014 11:51 AM
by Steve
1 115
Halfway point of year!
Steve
07-01-2014 12:08 PM
07-18-2014 11:38 AM
by Steve
14 658
I got told to leave and...
gwilson98
06-16-2014 02:07 PM
07-17-2014 11:43 AM
by Steve
16 973
Hey guys this is the...
prmenter@gmail.com
07-07-2014 08:23 PM
07-16-2014 08:10 PM
by ExtremeLawncareServices
28 707
Mowing the hills
prmenter@gmail.com
07-08-2014 12:22 PM
07-16-2014 05:00 PM
by Just for Cuts
18 641
Say Hello !!!
Steve
03-19-2007 11:18 AM
07-15-2014 05:38 PM
by icon2000
1,184 318,527
need some help geting...
dalvan0
07-13-2014 09:28 PM
07-15-2014 11:56 AM
by Steve
5 217
new trailer help
mattthelawnguy
07-11-2014 08:21 PM
07-15-2014 11:42 AM
by Steve
9 320
Classified Ad Template...
bcfb
06-05-2013 02:40 AM
07-15-2014 11:16 AM
by Steve
15 3,654
Husqvarna pz 60
CDLAWNCARE
07-06-2014 06:50 PM
07-15-2014 08:53 AM
by kslawn
10 392
Lowballers
Chaz
07-11-2014 03:55 PM
07-14-2014 12:27 PM
by Steve
5 326
My new side job
Sprinkler Buddy
05-10-2014 05:23 AM
07-14-2014 12:15 PM
by Steve
10 787
Illegal spraying
GoGreenerKS
07-04-2014 09:11 AM
07-13-2014 10:36 PM
by GoGreenerKS
10 503
New Mower and Trailer
Chaz
06-25-2014 12:04 PM
07-13-2014 06:25 PM
by SGL1
7 510
What Fertilizer to Use?
acrajchel
04-07-2014 01:56 PM
07-12-2014 07:36 PM
by SGL1
21 1,829
Fuel and fuel additives
SGL1
07-06-2014 10:23 AM
07-11-2014 07:53 PM
by SGL1
15 502
Questions for a patchy...
jumcgee
07-09-2014 08:42 AM
07-11-2014 12:34 PM
by Steve
1 177
toro proline blades wont...
boog
06-25-2014 06:26 PM
07-11-2014 05:28 AM
by kslawn
18 609
Contents of Marketing to...
prmenter@gmail.com
07-09-2014 05:25 PM
07-10-2014 03:23 PM
by Steve
3 265
Shindaiwa
CLB454
05-13-2014 09:04 PM
07-10-2014 03:04 PM
by Steve
14 742
Starting New in FL
mmcuttrim
08-06-2010 09:22 AM
07-10-2014 02:44 PM
by Steve
48 11,202
Bid help 45 on acre...
Priggan
06-26-2014 12:56 PM
07-09-2014 08:38 AM
by kslawn
7 487
need help bidding fence...
veteranslawncaresystems
07-03-2014 10:33 AM
07-08-2014 12:00 PM
by Steve
5 349
Trimmer or Knife?
gwilson98
07-04-2014 09:56 PM
07-07-2014 02:41 PM
by Steve
6 311
Started a New Solar Lawn...
Solar Lawn Care
06-08-2013 01:40 AM
07-07-2014 01:55 PM
by Steve
37 7,376
New Canadian Member
coppervalley
07-04-2014 02:15 PM
07-07-2014 01:12 PM
by Steve
1 213
Happy Independance...
stevef1201
07-04-2014 07:05 AM
07-07-2014 01:01 PM
by Steve
2 213
Echo PE 266 edger
stevef1201
07-01-2014 01:28 PM
07-07-2014 12:47 PM
by Steve
4 292
30 Inch Push Mowers Pros...
Billy Goat
06-27-2013 08:07 PM
07-06-2014 01:50 PM
by SGL1
21 5,193
» Popular Tags
4x4 birdscaping care charge christmas lighting collections subcontractor commercial craigslist credit card processing customers ecosymbiosis escrow exmark ferris four wheel drive fundraiser gopherhaul grass gravely gravely 34" zero turn holiday honda how much to charge how to bid hydraulic kawasaki labor cost lawn lawn care business lawn care business seo lawn care business show lawn care business website lawn care business website seo lawn care website lawn service leaf cleanup leaf removal managing a lawn care business marketing mulch estimate native plants new buisness new mower office management online classifieds outdoor environments podcast push versus ride redmax rotating scag scag v-ride search engine optimization season seo sprayer starting a business steve stihl subcontractor tips toro tractor auger trailer mate pro turfgrass consulting upsell walker winter money making ideas won't return wright stander rh
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.1.0

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:12 PM.


(C) 2011 Riggs Publications - Terms of use & Privacy Policy

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:12 PM.

(C) 2011 Riggs Publications - Terms of use & Privacy Policy