Lawn Care Business Forum Lawn Care Business Book Lawn Care Business Blog Lawn Care Software
Home Forum Contract & Flyer Templates Blog Software Videos Podcast Calculators / Estimators Store Mower Review Design It Yourself Lawn Business School

Go Back   GopherHaul Landscaping & Lawn Care Business Marketing Forum > Lawn Care, Landscaping, and Property Management Forums > Health, Safety and Accident Issues.

Health, Safety and Accident Issues. Discussion on health & safety issues that effect the lawn care, landscaping, tree care, power washing, snow plowing and other trades. Talks of accidents that have occurred and how they could have been prevented. OSHA rules.

My SCAG Tiget cub burst into FLAMES today!!


Health, Safety and Accident Issues.

Discussion on health & safety issues that effect the lawn care, landscaping, tree care, power washing, snow plowing and other trades. Talks of accidents that have occurred and how they could have been prevented. OSHA rules.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #11  
Old 05-31-2009, 09:48 PM
SuperiorPower
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I understand what you are saying about the investment and now, nothing.... $6,500 is a lot of money to watch it burn up. I hope Scag makes it right with you. Like you said, heck, you could have been in or near your house and garage.

As far as the vacuum operated part, I think that would work. The other thing would be have an electronic fuel solenoid at the gas tank, similar to what is already being used by many manufacturers on the carburetor. For example, on carbs, when the engine is shut off, the solenoid stops fuel flow into the venturi thus effectively shutting the engine off even if the ignition part does not shut the engine off. Now this is not effective if the carburetor float is leaking and running gas over into the venturi. This solenoid is currently used basically as an "anti-dieseling" solenoid to eliminate the problems that some engines had with continuing to run (aka, dieseling) even after the spark was interrupted. I see no reason why a similar solenoid could not be used at the gas tank. Granted, the design would have to be right otherwise it could leak or break there and be no better despite the solenoid.

BTW, as far as a replacement mower, I would consider the Hustler line if you decide to not reinvest in Scag.

Just hang in there and just let us know what happens.
Reply With Quote

Stop guess-timating. Learn how to estimate and make money! $$$
Mow Time Estimator Lawn Care Price Estimator Mulch and Topsoil Calculator Snow Plow Estimate Calculator


  #12  
Old 06-01-2009, 05:19 AM
kb9nvh kb9nvh is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 25
Rep Power: 7
kb9nvh is on a distinguished road
Default

Lawn care business tipsLawn Care Business Book
I can see where and electronic solenoid would work but the engine key would have to be turned off for the positive shut off. The idea of the vacuum shut of is that if the engine stops running for whatever reason, then fuel is stopped from flowing. In my case, since apparently a fuel line came loose, when the engine stopped running it would have been nice for the fuel to stop dumping as well. Maybe it would have gone out on its own once the initial gasoline had burned off?


I'll be contacting my insurance and SCAG again today to find out where I stand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperiorPower View Post
I understand what you are saying about the investment and now, nothing.... $6,500 is a lot of money to watch it burn up. I hope Scag makes it right with you. Like you said, heck, you could have been in or near your house and garage.

As far as the vacuum operated part, I think that would work. The other thing would be have an electronic fuel solenoid at the gas tank, similar to what is already being used by many manufacturers on the carburetor. For example, on carbs, when the engine is shut off, the solenoid stops fuel flow into the venturi thus effectively shutting the engine off even if the ignition part does not shut the engine off. Now this is not effective if the carburetor float is leaking and running gas over into the venturi. This solenoid is currently used basically as an "anti-dieseling" solenoid to eliminate the problems that some engines had with continuing to run (aka, dieseling) even after the spark was interrupted. I see no reason why a similar solenoid could not be used at the gas tank. Granted, the design would have to be right otherwise it could leak or break there and be no better despite the solenoid.

BTW, as far as a replacement mower, I would consider the Hustler line if you decide to not reinvest in Scag.

Just hang in there and just let us know what happens.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-01-2009, 06:34 AM
SuperiorPower
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb9nvh View Post
I can see where and electronic solenoid would work but the engine key would have to be turned off for the positive shut off.

I'll be contacting my insurance and SCAG again today to find out where I stand.
Actually, no. Just like the lights on some mowers operate only when the engine is running because it is based on the alternator. The solenoid would only activate when the engine is running and creating an electrical current. Or better yet, it could be activated by a seat safety switch which would be activated only if the operator is sitting on the mower seat. I personally would rather use an electronic than a vacuum operated mechanism since vacuum lines can, and will, get leaks and would thus become defective just because of old age and would be difficult and expensive to diagnose. I personally believe that an electronic system would be more stable.

However, with all of this being said, this would likely add an easy several $100 to the cost of a mower (and also a lot of headache). And I am not sure how effective it would be. When you think about it, the fuel line comes off the engine and starts dumping fuel where ever, which causes a fire. What is going to cause the engine to shut off? The primarily reason for the engine to shut off is if the key is turned off or the engine runs out of fuel. Unfortunately the engine does not shut off as soon as the fuel stops entering the carburetor (and thank goodness for this!!). Let me tell you, the engine can run for a short while (up to 30 seconds or more) just on the fuel that is still in the carburetor and as long as the engine is running, whether vacuum operated or electronic via the alternator, we are in the same boat. Even if the mower had a vacuum or electronic fuel shut off at the gas tank that shuts off as soon as the engine shuts off, just remember, it will not shut off until the carburetor runs out of fuel which by that time can be too late. By now the fire can have burned the fuel line back to the fuel tank. Today, most fuel tanks are plastic and by the time the engine shuts off the fire can have burned the fuel line back to the gas tank and have melted the gas tank and then all the gas in the tank is on fire. At this point no safety system is effective.

Plus, most mowers today have a fuel pump (almost invariably, they are mounted to the engine and are vacuum operated) and as long as the engine is running, it will continue to pump fuel, unless of course the fuel line is disconnected between the engine and the fuel pump. Absent a fuel pump, we are looking at a gravity flow fuel supply system that will continue dumping fuel onto the problem until there is no more fuel.

Let us know what you find out,
Eli
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-01-2009, 12:25 PM
kb9nvh kb9nvh is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 25
Rep Power: 7
kb9nvh is on a distinguished road
Default

Well, I'm sure there are multiple scenarios that could be worked out and the cheapest one that fixes the problem would be the one that gets used.
I know on my 1981 Honda silverwing they used a vacuum operated pet**** at the tank. No engine runny/No gas flowy. You are right that eventually the lines will crack and a vacuum leak will result...But thats the case with every rubber hose on the thing.

The main idea is to stop gas flowing by gravity if a catastrophic fuel line leak somehow occurs.

Here's how my fire played out....
1) smell of raw gas (assume fuel line failure here)
2) 5 or 10 seconds later engine stalls (remaining fuel from carb exhausted)
3) 20 or 30 seconds later engine area explodes in flames. (fuel running from broken line runs from down around engine and flows off back engine deck (gravity) and hits hot muffler...flames travel back to fuel source.

If fuel had cut off when the engine had stopped the fire would have either not occurred or maybe self extinguished.

Also, If you look at my photos you will see that the plastic tanks did not melt where the gas was in contact with the inside of the tank...The tanks melted on the tops, where there was no gas in contact with the plastic, and then the gas fumes burned from those holes once they melted open. I had two nearly full tanks of gas. When the fire was put out 35 minutes later the tanks still had gas in them and maybe still half full. (for 20 of those minutes the firemen were spraying copious amounts of water over the whole mower but the flames would not go out until a dry chemical extinguisher was used.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-01-2009, 04:24 PM
kb9nvh kb9nvh is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 25
Rep Power: 7
kb9nvh is on a distinguished road
Default

SCAG contacted me today...They want to work WITH my insurance company to an equitable solution. (whatever that means for me).

Fair to me would be if I end up with a 60 hour equivalent tiger cub back or better and out no deductible.
I told my insurance company about the past recall on this type of mower and that I felt SCAG should replace this due to the type of failure it was. I could have been seriously hurt and SCAG has the responsibility to produce a safe product and liability for the consequences of a mishap.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-01-2009, 05:26 PM
SuperiorPower
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hopefully everything will work out with Scag. It would be nice if they chose to give you a new one, plus some accessories due to the danger to you and the inconvenience.

You are right about the safety issue. You know it does not matter how good or how perfect a safety device is, if it is not installed then it is no good. A crummy device that is installed would be better than a perfect one that is not installed. Perhaps you could work with Scag to incorporate a safety valve on future models?

Let us know what happens in the coming days.

Good luck,
Eli
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-02-2009, 11:02 PM
tomustang
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
This does make me wonder if there are more mowers out there catching on fire like this and we just don't know about it.
Steve,


They are all over youtube, I was looking for videos of ztr's and "my tiger cub on fire" was showing up..
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-02-2009, 11:51 PM
Steve's Avatar
Steve Steve is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 37,511
Rep Power: 10
Steve has disabled reputation
Default

That is amazing!
__________________
- Subscribe to my Lawn Care Marketing Blog Feed and get daily tips sent to you. Free!
Download your Free trial of Gopher Lawn Care Software.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-03-2009, 12:24 AM
Steve W's Avatar
Steve W Steve W is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SOWEGA
Age: 49
Posts: 103
Rep Power: 7
Steve W is on a distinguished road
Default

Glad you didnt get hurt. I know one thing for sure, this has made me check my fuel line and it was cracked.It had to be replaced.
Thanks for sharing this with us.
__________________
<a href="http://www.gopherforum.com/index.php?pageid=GopherHaul-Lawn-Care-Business-School&graduate=661b304af1800fad86a3828c8bcbb737">
<img src="http://www.gopherforum.com/uploaded-files/images/school-logo-banner.gif" border="0">
</a>
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-05-2009, 08:21 PM
kb9nvh kb9nvh is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 25
Rep Power: 7
kb9nvh is on a distinguished road
Default

To close out the SCAG part of this thread..SCAG has made its final decision.
They are willing to sell me a tiger cat for 6200 + tx. I'm guessing that's about 800 less than what most folks can get one for...Unfortunately, the price still puts me out 1K of insurance deductible.

So, SCAG has made a minor gesture towards helping me but nothing close to replacing the mower.

So, since I have to pay minimum 1K, and insurance will pay "replacement value" I'll be buying up and into a different brand.

I'll have the old 48" deck probably still good to sell as well as most of the front parts of the mower...could be that drive motors are good too but will have to take a look.

Thanks everyone for following this thread. I consider the matter closed but would invite anyone to continue to post their experiences with SCAG or any other mower that may have an potential fatal flaw. I've been chastised, in another forum, for not keeping up with my preventative maintenance (although I have met or exceeded whats listed in the manual).

When its your business or your life on the line I think it prudent to do more and now I know that both are at risk and that the manufacture wont do much to back you up.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
26 HP Briggs \ Scag zak Truck, Trailer, and Outdoor Power Equipment Discussion, Repairs. 10 10-19-2011 07:45 PM
Scag 48" Tiger Cub aggielandscaper Truck, Trailer, and Outdoor Power Equipment Discussion, Repairs. 4 11-22-2009 09:51 PM
Scag or Exmark? arcada Starting a lawn care business. 6 08-26-2008 10:36 AM
German Scag Mowers avigliano Truck, Trailer, and Outdoor Power Equipment Discussion, Repairs. 8 02-05-2008 09:30 AM
Are we in for a bubble burst? Steve General Business Discussions 2 06-08-2006 09:33 PM

» Recent Threads
  RatingTitle, Username, & Date Last Post Replies Views
I came across this on a...
rootytalbot
08-02-2015 11:04 AM
Yesterday 10:41 PM
by SC93
7 185
Big mowing job
Bradcook21
07-30-2015 03:57 PM
Yesterday 03:50 PM
by Bradcook21
8 220
Help bidding a hedge...
hopolb33
08-02-2015 06:09 PM
Yesterday 12:59 PM
by hopolb33
2 112
Best commercial contract...
sanlanct
Yesterday 12:18 PM
Yesterday 12:18 PM
by sanlanct
0 38
recycler toro 22"
rvezakis
08-03-2015 12:10 PM
Yesterday 11:47 AM
by Steve
1 61
scag SWZT review!
mattthelawnguy
07-23-2015 02:28 PM
08-01-2015 11:27 AM
by mattthelawnguy
10 454
Say Hello !!!
Steve
03-19-2007 11:18 AM
07-31-2015 12:29 PM
by Steve
1,227 401,907
Hello Everybody
budspop
07-30-2015 11:42 AM
07-31-2015 12:28 PM
by Steve
1 86
Should I buy this Exmark...
googus
07-03-2015 09:22 AM
07-31-2015 11:34 AM
by googus
9 646
Hello!
brandycarlton
07-29-2015 12:31 PM
07-29-2015 03:54 PM
by Steve
1 167
Assessing the Market
NJDB60
07-27-2015 03:25 PM
07-28-2015 09:24 PM
by Steve
2 282
Whats wrong with this...
GreenWorx
07-28-2015 07:56 PM
07-28-2015 09:09 PM
by Steve
2 262
Funny craigslist post
GreenWorx
07-28-2015 07:17 PM
07-28-2015 09:02 PM
by Steve
2 280
Watch out for this -...
rootytalbot
07-22-2015 02:13 PM
07-28-2015 09:00 PM
by Steve
7 438
NewVenture
NJDB60
07-27-2015 03:38 PM
07-28-2015 08:58 PM
by Steve
1 251
Pricing issue
Mr. Mow
07-07-2015 06:15 AM
07-27-2015 06:40 PM
by GreenWorx
17 892
how to make customers...
Bradcook21
05-27-2015 05:04 PM
07-27-2015 06:08 PM
by GreenWorx
15 3,011
Need your help, Gopher...
Chilehead
07-23-2015 07:02 PM
07-27-2015 11:28 AM
by Steve
11 430
These are the days on...
ExtremeLawncareServices
01-11-2015 10:41 AM
07-27-2015 11:22 AM
by Steve
94 10,547
Dogs
Mr. Mow
06-29-2015 02:37 PM
07-25-2015 07:50 AM
by Chilehead
12 2,468
Just about mid year, how...
GreenWorx
06-24-2015 07:05 PM
07-22-2015 07:31 PM
by Chilehead
14 2,538
Learning as I grow -...
WarriorLandscapingCAN
07-18-2015 07:46 AM
07-21-2015 10:53 AM
by Steve
3 353
Large dirt mound removal
purdue1973
07-09-2015 07:45 PM
07-20-2015 12:55 PM
by Steve
6 503
Hey everyone
Fantasy landscaping
07-09-2015 06:53 AM
07-09-2015 11:47 AM
by Steve
1 363
I dont know what to do...
Bradcook21
06-21-2015 08:49 AM
07-07-2015 09:48 PM
by SGL1
16 2,792
Start LIKING FACEBOOK...
rlclawncare123
02-26-2015 12:06 AM
07-07-2015 02:54 PM
by GreenWorx
13 3,744
Is it too late to do...
markty
06-16-2015 05:28 PM
07-07-2015 01:00 PM
by problem solver
9 2,541
Hi everyone
Mattw
07-06-2015 05:59 PM
07-07-2015 10:18 AM
by Steve
1 388
4th of July parade...
Steve
07-06-2015 10:35 AM
07-06-2015 10:35 AM
by Steve
0 335
Unemployment rates drop,...
Steve
07-02-2015 12:40 PM
07-06-2015 10:30 AM
by Steve
4 509
» Popular Tags
ad landscaping advertising aerocore applying billy goat brushcutter blowout bob villa bush contract help curb appeal services deliquentaccounts demonstration design edging equipment dealer equipment rental flyers foreman free advertising google growing a lawn care business hardscapes hiring how to husqvarna hydro increase customers jobs landscape landscape services landscaping landscaping training lawn aeration lawn care lawn care busines plan lawn mowing marketing marketing secrets more customers business mulch new business ordinance past due patio install per hour charge per hour service pricing profit on employee roundup scag secrets to landscaping sell the vision seo shell shreaded snow plowing solo solo backpack sprayer sq ft square foot swzt tree tree pics up sell employee walk behind web design website website design wood www.greenturion.co.za
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.1.0

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:55 AM.


(C) 2011 Riggs Publications - Terms of use & Privacy Policy

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:55 AM.

(C) 2011 Riggs Publications - Terms of use & Privacy Policy