My SCAG Tiget cub burst into FLAMES today!!

[kb9nvh]

My SCAG Tiget cub burst into FLAMES!!
Model STC48V-19KAI serial C1602194 bought in 2006.
Today after about 30 minutes of mowing my SCAG tiger cub smelled like gasoline for a second, died 10 seconds later and then, after about 30 more seconds BURST into FLAMES and burned to the ground. This was used for my yard and had very low hours.
Here's some pictures
http://picasaweb.google.com/grimshady/SCAG_burnedup#
Doesn't look like I"m in the recall...so what the heck!!
You dont know how it feels to watch helplessly as your 6 thousand dollar mower burns to the ground before your eyes..Water just made the flames worse (the fire department was spraying it). Must have lost a fuel line I guess somehow and had raw gas feeding the flames... dont know what sparked it since the muffler is on the back and the flames were, well, I guess everywhere on the engine...but seemed like a lot of flames between the engine and the seat.

Anyone have any recommendations besides call SCAG, my dealer, my insurance company (wonder if they will pay this much money for a mower)??

[CHEESE2009]

holy crap!

Now that's what I call a bad friggen day!!!

I hope your insurance company can help you out!

The worst part is, there is no one to take your frustrations out on lol, that thing just blew up!

Glad to hear your ok! I'm assuming you are! Are you?

[musician/lawnman]

Wow, I hope you are ok, Sorry to hear about the fire. Seems to me this is not an isolated incident.....
Check out this post here: http://www.gopherforum.com/showthrea...ht=burns+95%25

This woman lost here life to a fire on a Scagg earlier this year. Was very sad to hear.

[kb9nvh]

SCAG had a recall but seems to have ended in 2004. Mines a 2006 with like 50 hours on it. On another forum most think the insurance wont cover something like this..I needed to get specific insurance for it. I hope SCAG comes through with something or its back to kmart mowers for me....

[SuperiorPower]

SCAG had a recall but seems to have ended in 2004. Mines a 2006 with like 50 hours on it. On another forum most think the insurance wont cover something like this..I needed to get specific insurance for it. I hope SCAG comes through with something or its back to kmart mowers for me....

I would start with the Scag dealer. Explain to them what happened, BUT be honest with them IF there is anything that you know could have caused this. Don't get irate with them because, a) they are only representing the manufacturer, b) they can be a great help to you to fight the manufacturer if you keep them on your side.

If the dealer tells you they can do nothing, ask for a telephone number for Scag or a Scag distributor representative. They may not give you contact info for their contacts (and I can't say that I blame them). If they don't, ask if they can have someone from Scag call you. Remember, don't get irate because getting irate does not help you. After all, if you get irate that makes you look like a looser. And if this was my Scag dealership, I would think that you are at fault and are trying to cover something up. Professional frustration at the lose of your expensive machine is to be expected and is completely different than being irate.

or its back to kmart mowers for me....

Oh. I am suddenly sick to my stomach. I am about to puke! (no offense to you) Any machine you buy from a box store is going to be junk before it is loaded into your truck or trailer. If the Scag were a box store machine I GUARANTEE you would not be getting reimbursed by the manufacture.... It would be your lose. Completely, absolutely, and indefinitely. To be nice about it, with a box store, they care nothing about you as the end user unless you buy another machine from them. To be plain about it, the box stores and the manufacturer who sell through the box stores care only at money in their pocket which is why they have teamed up. The manufacturer only wants to sell machines and does not care about making sure they get proper warranty coverage or proper service from a qualified dealer otherwise they would use a servicing dealer. The box store does not care about warranty or proper service either. This is evidenced by the fact they do not provide a service center in their facility. But then again, I don't know that I would take my machine to them if they did have a service center in-house....

A servicing dealer (like the Scag dealer) will work for you and cares about you as a customer even when you are not buying another new machine from them every 5 years. They care about creating a relationship. Most end users would not permit a servicing dealer to get away with the things that they permit a box store to get away with. And after the box store has done them wrong they go right back to the box store or another box store and buy another junk unit. Remember "don't expect different results if you continue to do the same thing". Let me ask you, why did you ever go buy a Scag? Was it perhaps because you were feed up with the box store junk?

Box stores care only to sell you another machine once your current poorly designed machine has broken down and is no longer yard worthy. And another one after that. And another after that one. The box store machines are cheap consumer grade and are designed to, at best, last only up to 7-8 years in consumer use while the commercial units (like Scag) are designed to last for up to 15 years under commercial use. So please understand my nausea.

[kb9nvh]

***I would start with the Scag dealer. Explain to them what happened, BUT be honest with them IF there is anything that you know could have caused this. Don't get irate with them because, a) they are only representing the manufacturer, b) they can be a great help to you to fight the manufacturer if you keep them on your side.

I wont get Irate...although I feel like I should have known about this issue before putting myself at risk..what if this had burst into flames close to my home?? I would have had to watch both burn while waiting for the fire department. I understand that engineering mistakes happen...SCAG should bear the cost to make this right. They are a premium commercial mower and I do absolutely expect superior service from them. In this case, there's not much gray area...This mower was greased and oil changed by me and I wasn't in the engine area tweaking bolts or messing with the carburetor. The mower only had about 50 hours on it and the only things I've done to it was grease it, change the blades this year and change oil and filter.



***Any machine you buy from a box store is going to be junk before it is loaded into your truck or trailer.
This is sort of my point...my scag went from premium mower to junk in and instant but only 2 years to recover my 6.5K it had better been good. I know people who spent way less on a ZTR mower and they are still going strong.


***A servicing dealer (like the Scag dealer) will work for you and cares about you as a customer even when you are not buying another new machine from them every 5 years. Let me ask you, why did you ever go buy a Scag? Was it perhaps because you were feed up with the box store junk?

Well, here's where the rubber meets the road. We will find out what the 6.5K bought me tomorrow. I bought the SCAG for the reason you cite. A mower to last me (homeowner non-commercial) a lifetime. That's not what I got apparently

***Box stores care only to sell you another machine once your current poorly designed machine has broken down and is no longer yard worthy. And another one after that. And another after that one. The box store machines are cheap consumer grade and are designed to, at best, last only up to 7-8 years in consumer use while the commercial units (like Scag) are designed to last for up to 15 years under commercial use.

It was just tounge in cheek on the box store mower but yous have to admit that I could have had a lot of new mowers a lot longer for 6.5K.

[Fresh Cut]

Sorry to hear this man.

I hope Scag comes through for you, it seems like something like this should be small potatoes for a big company to cover. Even if only to possibly keep a customer and keep you from bad mouthing them from here to Tulsa.

The yard looks great, though.

[kb9nvh]

thanks, I'll update when I find out more.

Sorry to hear this man.

I hope Scag comes through for you, it seems like something like this should be small potatoes for a big company to cover. Even if only to possibly keep a customer and keep you from bad mouthing them from here to Tulsa.

The yard looks great, though.

[Steve]

This does make me wonder if there are more mowers out there catching on fire like this and we just don't know about it.

[kb9nvh]

Well, certainly a few. It appears that mine just had a catastrophic gas line failure. I think that it might be possible to force the failure points of something like this to a place where the gas wont leak around the engine. Positive threaded gas lines would keep a line from just "popping off" and then dumping the tank contents onto wherever its pointed. Vacuum operated fuel petclocks (cant say pet****..LOL) could be used to shut off fuel flow in the event the engine quits.

These expensive commercial mowers surly have the headroom to add a few safety measures into the fuel deliver system.

This does make me wonder if there are more mowers out there catching on fire like this and we just don't know about it.

[SuperiorPower]

I understand what you are saying about the investment and now, nothing.... $6,500 is a lot of money to watch it burn up. I hope Scag makes it right with you. Like you said, heck, you could have been in or near your house and garage.

As far as the vacuum operated part, I think that would work. The other thing would be have an electronic fuel solenoid at the gas tank, similar to what is already being used by many manufacturers on the carburetor. For example, on carbs, when the engine is shut off, the solenoid stops fuel flow into the venturi thus effectively shutting the engine off even if the ignition part does not shut the engine off. Now this is not effective if the carburetor float is leaking and running gas over into the venturi. This solenoid is currently used basically as an "anti-dieseling" solenoid to eliminate the problems that some engines had with continuing to run (aka, dieseling) even after the spark was interrupted. I see no reason why a similar solenoid could not be used at the gas tank. Granted, the design would have to be right otherwise it could leak or break there and be no better despite the solenoid.

BTW, as far as a replacement mower, I would consider the Hustler line if you decide to not reinvest in Scag.

Just hang in there and just let us know what happens.

[kb9nvh]

I can see where and electronic solenoid would work but the engine key would have to be turned off for the positive shut off. The idea of the vacuum shut of is that if the engine stops running for whatever reason, then fuel is stopped from flowing. In my case, since apparently a fuel line came loose, when the engine stopped running it would have been nice for the fuel to stop dumping as well. Maybe it would have gone out on its own once the initial gasoline had burned off?


I'll be contacting my insurance and SCAG again today to find out where I stand.

I understand what you are saying about the investment and now, nothing.... $6,500 is a lot of money to watch it burn up. I hope Scag makes it right with you. Like you said, heck, you could have been in or near your house and garage.

As far as the vacuum operated part, I think that would work. The other thing would be have an electronic fuel solenoid at the gas tank, similar to what is already being used by many manufacturers on the carburetor. For example, on carbs, when the engine is shut off, the solenoid stops fuel flow into the venturi thus effectively shutting the engine off even if the ignition part does not shut the engine off. Now this is not effective if the carburetor float is leaking and running gas over into the venturi. This solenoid is currently used basically as an "anti-dieseling" solenoid to eliminate the problems that some engines had with continuing to run (aka, dieseling) even after the spark was interrupted. I see no reason why a similar solenoid could not be used at the gas tank. Granted, the design would have to be right otherwise it could leak or break there and be no better despite the solenoid.

BTW, as far as a replacement mower, I would consider the Hustler line if you decide to not reinvest in Scag.

Just hang in there and just let us know what happens.

[SuperiorPower]

I can see where and electronic solenoid would work but the engine key would have to be turned off for the positive shut off.

I'll be contacting my insurance and SCAG again today to find out where I stand.

Actually, no. Just like the lights on some mowers operate only when the engine is running because it is based on the alternator. The solenoid would only activate when the engine is running and creating an electrical current. Or better yet, it could be activated by a seat safety switch which would be activated only if the operator is sitting on the mower seat. I personally would rather use an electronic than a vacuum operated mechanism since vacuum lines can, and will, get leaks and would thus become defective just because of old age and would be difficult and expensive to diagnose. I personally believe that an electronic system would be more stable.

However, with all of this being said, this would likely add an easy several $100 to the cost of a mower (and also a lot of headache). And I am not sure how effective it would be. When you think about it, the fuel line comes off the engine and starts dumping fuel where ever, which causes a fire. What is going to cause the engine to shut off? The primarily reason for the engine to shut off is if the key is turned off or the engine runs out of fuel. Unfortunately the engine does not shut off as soon as the fuel stops entering the carburetor (and thank goodness for this!!). Let me tell you, the engine can run for a short while (up to 30 seconds or more) just on the fuel that is still in the carburetor and as long as the engine is running, whether vacuum operated or electronic via the alternator, we are in the same boat. Even if the mower had a vacuum or electronic fuel shut off at the gas tank that shuts off as soon as the engine shuts off, just remember, it will not shut off until the carburetor runs out of fuel which by that time can be too late. By now the fire can have burned the fuel line back to the fuel tank. Today, most fuel tanks are plastic and by the time the engine shuts off the fire can have burned the fuel line back to the gas tank and have melted the gas tank and then all the gas in the tank is on fire. At this point no safety system is effective.

Plus, most mowers today have a fuel pump (almost invariably, they are mounted to the engine and are vacuum operated) and as long as the engine is running, it will continue to pump fuel, unless of course the fuel line is disconnected between the engine and the fuel pump. Absent a fuel pump, we are looking at a gravity flow fuel supply system that will continue dumping fuel onto the problem until there is no more fuel.

Let us know what you find out,
Eli

[kb9nvh]

Well, I'm sure there are multiple scenarios that could be worked out and the cheapest one that fixes the problem would be the one that gets used.
I know on my 1981 Honda silverwing they used a vacuum operated pet**** at the tank. No engine runny/No gas flowy. You are right that eventually the lines will crack and a vacuum leak will result...But thats the case with every rubber hose on the thing.

The main idea is to stop gas flowing by gravity if a catastrophic fuel line leak somehow occurs.

Here's how my fire played out....
1) smell of raw gas (assume fuel line failure here)
2) 5 or 10 seconds later engine stalls (remaining fuel from carb exhausted)
3) 20 or 30 seconds later engine area explodes in flames. (fuel running from broken line runs from down around engine and flows off back engine deck (gravity) and hits hot muffler...flames travel back to fuel source.

If fuel had cut off when the engine had stopped the fire would have either not occurred or maybe self extinguished.

Also, If you look at my photos you will see that the plastic tanks did not melt where the gas was in contact with the inside of the tank...The tanks melted on the tops, where there was no gas in contact with the plastic, and then the gas fumes burned from those holes once they melted open. I had two nearly full tanks of gas. When the fire was put out 35 minutes later the tanks still had gas in them and maybe still half full. (for 20 of those minutes the firemen were spraying copious amounts of water over the whole mower but the flames would not go out until a dry chemical extinguisher was used.

[kb9nvh]

SCAG contacted me today...They want to work WITH my insurance company to an equitable solution. (whatever that means for me).

Fair to me would be if I end up with a 60 hour equivalent tiger cub back or better and out no deductible.
I told my insurance company about the past recall on this type of mower and that I felt SCAG should replace this due to the type of failure it was. I could have been seriously hurt and SCAG has the responsibility to produce a safe product and liability for the consequences of a mishap.