PDA

View Full Version : Suicide


Steve
08-13-2008, 04:07 PM
Although this post probably doesn't belong in a section called the pursuit of happiness, I think it deals with it in a way.

I got an email last night about a friend who was a musician and had spent most of his life trying to 'make it.' Or break through and reach that thing we all call fame. He was a talented musician and seemed to have many many friends. Yet over last weekend, he put a pistol to his head and killed himself.

Most of today I have been seen posts on websites from people I hadn't heard from in a while all reaching out in shock of this.

As I sit here reading it, I thought to myself, how? With such a large support group, how does one find themselves so isolated? Can you imagine if he had just made a post somewhere or sent an email or made a call and said, 'I am really depressed.' Could someone have then been able to help?

With the internet, news travels fast. We all seem to be more connected now than ever before, yet are we really?

Are we better off now than in the past before the internet?

How has the internet effected us and our support group?

Also when you are a musician, you may have a fan base but are these people part of your support group? Can they help you?

I don't know about any of this yet. I just thought I would throw these thoughts out and see if anyone had any insight.

Thanks

musician/lawnman
08-14-2008, 12:40 AM
Steve,

That's sad to hear. Sorry about your friend.
The thing is that the internet & cell phones may make us more reachable but he may not have ever reached out to anyone. So all the communication devices in the world are useless.

I don't think I would turn to my fan base for help. They don't really "know" you. They like you for your songs, maybe your looks or stage presence but have generally very little idea who you really are.
My fans think I'm nuts... on stage, I am. It's a persona, it's where I vent. It's the irrisponsible alter ego I dreamed of becoming when I picked up my first guitar 18 years ago.

Hope that hels at all, I don't know?

Steve
08-14-2008, 04:14 PM
At times I wonder if it's the goals/the dreams that set the stage for this.

In high school, I think you are more likely to see kids wanting to become rock stars than entrepreneurs.

As someone who has both been on stage and an entrepreneur, is there a similar level of excitement? Are both roles as much fun or is one more fun and entrancing than the other?

musician/lawnman
08-14-2008, 07:01 PM
Well, I don't think you can blame hopes & dreams for suicides.

I don't find my music career & my business to be anything alike at all other than I need a trailer dedicated to each.... that's where the similarities end.

The music is a love, a passion, a dream, a means of venting & release of lifes stresses.

The business is something borne out of necessity. I enjoy the work compared to many jobs I have done in the past. but it's still WORK. I figured out long ago & this applies to most any job..... WORK SUCKS! If it didn't people would voulenteer, So you wouldn't get paid to do it. These exist they are called hobbies.... Like uummmm, Music! So yeah, owning the biz & calling the shots is cool, building the business & watching it grow is kind of exciting.... but scheduling, dealing with customers, employees & suppliers etc. blows alot of the time. Break downs happen, weather happens, & when your ready to snap, there's nobody to call & say "I'm not gonna be in today"... at the end of a 10 hour day (like today) theres an hour of paperwork, then blades to change & sharpen, mowers to be greased, oil to be changed, bills to be paid & invoices to go out..... sometimes it never ends. But that is the downside to owning your own business. You don't get to clock out & go home & that's it.

Being a musician in an active group that performs regularly is great, I love it, I've been doing it for 17 years straight. I've never been out of a band for more than 2 weeks in the entire time with exception of one 6 month break I took by choice about 7 years ago.

Steve
08-15-2008, 06:10 AM
I really appreciate you sharing with me your insight, it really helped me think.


Well, I don't think you can blame hopes & dreams for suicides.

That's the thing about suicide, it leaves us all looking everywhere for a reason why.


See the thing I have wondered is, there is this dream out there. For some or maybe for many. Some head towards the dream, others give up quickly and look for someone to tell them what to do.

Musicians as with other artists seem to shoot for the dream and disregard the day to day reality. Some are able to keep the dream alive for a short time, others for a longer period. But I would venture to guess more often then not, the reality catches up to them and the dream ends.

It makes me think of the Journey song Faithfully:

They say that the road
Aint no place to start a family
Right down the line
Its been you and me
And lovin a music man
Aint always what its supposed to be

To me, this highlights the difference between the dream and the reality.


On the flip side of it, the entrepreneur, I find ideally to be the artist with a sense of how to deal with the day to day reality. Their business is their art and selling their art is their business. It's more of a fuller circle. A yin and yang.

It's my view this is everyone's bet hope at finding success and finding peace.


You also made me think of a book "Do What You Love, The Money Will Follow: Discovering Your Right Livelihood." The first line of the book says "Work I disliked the most was work I wasn't suited for..."

I can only hope that this forum helps facilitate all of us the opportunity to find what we love and then find the ability to make money from it.

It's just such a shame when someone's dream comes to an end and they see no way out for them but suicide. At the moment, I can't think of any other way to see it than his dream came to an end.

StartALawnCareBusiness
08-15-2008, 11:01 AM
You also made me think of a book "Do What You Love, The Money Will Follow: Discovering Your Right Livelihood." The first line of the book says "Work I disliked the most was work I wasn't suited for..."



Steve, it's incredible that you mention this book. A neighbor gave that book to me for graduation. I carried it around for a year before eventually taking it seriously and turning the dream of starting my business into a reality.

I think HOPE or hopelessness is a huge factor in suicide. People get depressed. They are in situations where they can't see their way out.

A bad marriage, financial debt, drug addiction, ill-health can be devistatingly depressing and cause a person to consider suicide.

It's difficult to understand that a problem which has a simple solution to an outside observer might be insurmountable to the person stuck in the mess. To them, their situation is hopeless.

This is a good discussion. Thanks for getting it started.

Keith

Steve
08-15-2008, 05:59 PM
Do you think there is any correlation at all between doing something you love and finding happiness?

Or on the opposite side of the coin, not doing something you love and being depressed?

Do we need to be wary of the dreams we choose and the path we have taken? Can some of them, if they fail to include a way to deal with the day to day, lead us off a cliff?


Also what stood out for you in that book? Any specific part that you could share with us all?

VPS Lawn Care
08-15-2008, 10:55 PM
Steve, i too lost someone very close to me a few years ago, and it is a hard way to have your eye's opened.

Dreams, Hopes, Desires, the things that we all strive for, work for, struggle for, what are they? Ya know i was just sitting here talking to my wife about this, and she had a very simple, straight forward response, and i quote " Well" she said " I think it all comes down to perspective, the way one looks at the things in there life. I sit here and think, what makes me happy, what do i want out of life, then i stop myself, why focus on wants, when i have all i need" end quote. She got me to thinking, i know what she was saying, we all want lots of things, though they may be diffrent, the want is in all of us. But in life what are the things i need to be happy? is this not the real question we should be asking? I am happy to have food on the table and yes even steak a couple times a month, i am so so happy to have my 3 kids, i am happy to have a roof over our heads, paid for cars to drive, and i am happy to have alot of what we all need even if alot of people don't admit it, LOVE, so should we be looking for what we want, or what we need, and how do we know the diffrence?
is it half empty or half full?

Steve
08-16-2008, 12:26 AM
You are grounded. You also have an infrastructure and support group that help keep you grounded which is fantastic.

There are those out in the world with an emptiness. A hole that goes right through them. Constantly out there searching for some elusive answer. It's all too often a fatal flaw.

I do wonder at times if being an entrepreneur can help ground one. If it can teach skills. If it can teach structure.

I wonder if running a business can help your mental well being as well.

VPS Lawn Care
08-16-2008, 04:32 PM
Steve, I think it does, as small business owners we have to do alot of thinking, problem solving, the brain is a muscle and we exercise it i think more then most with the 9 to 5 job, because we do it all. We are teaching our selves every day how to solve problems and deal with things that dont meet our expectations. I feel overwhelmed sometime, and think what am i to do now, but as an entrepreneur i am always looking at as many diffrent paths as i can think of or i ask for advice from those that know, like on here.That is what we do. I know i was not like this as much when i worked for my old co. i have grown so much since starting my LCO even at my age and am still always looking for new better directions to go.
I think a bigpart of it is we put so much on the line when we just quite and start from scratch like i did, and many others have. That is when i think we start thinking about life a little diffrent.

Steve
08-16-2008, 05:17 PM
I think a big part of it is we put so much on the line when we just quit and start from scratch like i did, and many others have. That is when i think we start thinking about life a little different.

Can you tell me more about what you mean?

VPS Lawn Care
08-17-2008, 08:33 PM
Can you tell me more about what you mean?

Well as i have metioned on here before, I used to work for a very lg corp. as a manager for 15 years. In this role i had to make decisions all day long, but my answers were all based off of the corporate guide lines, so how much was I really using my brain? Now on the other hand as a small business owner I really have to think things through in more detail, make my own guide lines, in its own way is rewarding, right or wrong it gives you more of a sense of control. For those in a job, or chasing that dream, how much control do they really have, it all depends on someone they most likely dont know from adam saying yes or no, And more often then not no is the answer they get.
I felt i was stuck, could not be happy, hated my job so much seemed endless. Then ine day i just had enough, kids grown, and though i still needed an income i just quite, the after the first month trying to figure out where and what to do, i started my LCO, though time is consumed , i am so much more happy then ever, i feel like i am in control of my own destiny now.

So I really think it changes the mind set in the sense that we are not waiting for our ship to come in, we are swimming out to it.

jackmcmanus21
09-19-2008, 10:01 AM
I personally think people need to see the fruits of their labor. If you work in an office, you dont really get anything done...you just keep the train rolling. That is why people like construction workers and people in the lawn care industry are happier...they can stand back and admire their work.

Steve
09-19-2008, 10:11 AM
That is a very good point.

voodooray
04-23-2009, 11:42 PM
I personally think people need to see the fruits of their labor. If you work in an office, you dont really get anything done...you just keep the train rolling. That is why people like construction workers and people in the lawn care industry are happier...they can stand back and admire their work.

YepYep... That is one of the biggest reasons I like it. I used to be one of those people how kept the train rolling for at least 15 years..... Made good $$ but just never was happy with it. I know we all need money and it's important especially with a house paymnent, wife and kids BUT there's so SOOOO much more to it than just money.

I work harder (physically) now than I have in the last 15 years... but it doesnt bother me becuase I enjoy it and i'm happier than being stuck in a office all day...

MeanGreenCare
04-20-2011, 09:07 PM
Steve, i too lost someone very close to me a few years ago, and it is a hard way to have your eye's opened.

Dreams, Hopes, Desires, the things that we all strive for, work for, struggle for, what are they? Ya know i was just sitting here talking to my wife about this, and she had a very simple, straight forward response, and i quote " Well" she said " I think it all comes down to perspective, the way one looks at the things in there life. I sit here and think, what makes me happy, what do i want out of life, then i stop myself, why focus on wants, when i have all i need" end quote. She got me to thinking, i know what she was saying, we all want lots of things, though they may be diffrent, the want is in all of us. But in life what are the things i need to be happy? is this not the real question we should be asking? I am happy to have food on the table and yes even steak a couple times a month, i am so so happy to have my 3 kids, i am happy to have a roof over our heads, paid for cars to drive, and i am happy to have alot of what we all need even if alot of people don't admit it, LOVE, so should we be looking for what we want, or what we need, and how do we know the diffrence?
is it half empty or half full?

YOUR WIFE NAILED IT ON THE HEAD OF THE NAIL.

Also for you people who think they know what love is or claim to be in "LOVE" I want to share a famous quote I found, and this quote

"Love is a temporary madness. It erupts like an earthquake and then subsides. And when it subsides you have to make a decision. You have to work out whether your roots have become so entwined together that it is inconceivable that you should ever part. Because this is what love is. Love is not breathlessness, it is not excitement, it is not the promulgation of promises of eternal passion. That is just being "in love" which any of us can convince ourselves we are.

Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away, and this is both an art and a fortunate accident."

MeanGreenCare
04-20-2011, 09:11 PM
Sorry to hear about your friend Steve. I been in a situation like that myself. I was lost, confused, and depressed. I thought of it, but never could push myself to it. I seen no point in doing such a thing. I realized much more to life to make you happy. Bad things eventually go away, but happiness is here for eternity.

Tom53
04-20-2011, 10:31 PM
Steve, I am really sorry to hear about your friend. There are no words that anyone can say that will totally heal the wounds of anyone, family or friends when something like this happens.

Some people do reach out, and if a person thinks about it, someone who does reach out should be considered as lucky enough to have that strength. Not everyone does have the strength to ask for help and that is a terrible shame.

I have dealt with many suicides and attempted suicides during my career in law enforcement, and I can assure you there is NO single answer as to why anyone would choose this path, and also there is NO simple answer either. The one thing that always came to my mind in these situations, is the person for whatever reason, chose the permanent answer to a temporary problem.

One may never completely heal or get over a mental issue, but there is help and anyone considering suicide should know that someone, and maybe the last person they might normally think of, DOES care and will go to the end of the earth to help if they can. I truly wish your friend had reached out to someone and would have found that strength to get through his issues. He was most likely loved by many more people than he could have dreamed of...and I think almost all of us are.

To you, his friends and his family, I give my condolences and that you all find a way to heal faster.

Ducke
04-21-2011, 07:39 AM
Steve Sorry to hear about your friend.
These stories always seem to hit home in two ways for me .
(one)5 years ago I lost my best friend of 33 years gambling did him in.
He was always looking for the quick dollar, Amway, or what ever pyramid
scheme that came along that was him But the VLT's got Him to the tune of $200,000.00
He had finally dug a hole he could not get out of.
Strange thing is he kept it hidden from us all. We did not have a clue till he was gone.

(Two) I suffer from sever depression I some time get in dark funks that can last
for weeks, But I have some of the greatest Friends and Family that a guy could ever want and they watch out for me. I know that the difference between life and death if a razor thin line, I have been there standing on the edge looking down all there is to see is darkness but it seems so much better then the crazy techno color madness of day to day life. But as I had said its my safety net of Friends and family (and some real good drugs) that help me face each day.
April has been a very bad month for me I lost my Mother on April 1st Rain rain rain and tiring to start a new company its been very stressful but I am making it though day by day.
Your friend sounded like a great guy cherish his memory and he will be there for you any time you need him.
It good to talk about it and with that I'm off to get a coffee and talk with the guys and watch the rain, Today is a good day.

Graham

Steve
04-21-2011, 11:55 PM
Oh I am sorry about your mom.

I suffer from sever depression I some time get in dark funks that can last
for weeks

Do you ever wonder if depression is something new we deal with because of the society we live in now or do you feel that depression has always been with us through out time?

Ducke
04-22-2011, 07:45 AM
Depression has always been around
It just we know so much more about it now we are starting to understand that it is an illness and it can be treated.
My Mom suffered from it and from what I understand so did her Father.
It is nothing more then a chemical imbalance in the brain.
I am lucky I saw how it effected my Mom and knew what it was and that it was not something to fear or be embarrassed about. I have stood up to it and am fighting it head on.
Yes I have my bad days were I just don't want to get out of bed ,were the whole world seems to sitting on my shoulders, but I get up I clear my head take my Meds and get on with my life.
I have a great life I have a fantastic Wife who is loving and understanding and supportive of me a wonderful Family that is always there for me and a great group of Friends who really care about me and look out for me.
It just some days for what ever reason I find it hard to see it though the haze in my mind :( but I give my head a shake and there they are. :)
I could go on and on but I will start to get boring.

So Steve how are you feeling.
Has this forum been able to help you with this, Has it helped answer any of those many questions that are bouncing around in your head.:confused:
I hope so.

Steve
04-22-2011, 11:41 AM
I think a real important lesson I learned from all of this is that you never know what is going on in someone else's head. You may think someone is doing great and because of that, you might not talk to them and see how they are feeling.

But I think everyone needs outlets to vent.

The Cleaning Doctor
04-22-2011, 06:35 PM
I actually had a friend in High School come up to me and tell me that he was going home and was going to commit suicide. Luckily I was able to get a hold of his brother who then called his parents. He almost succeeded but they got there in time to save him. Now he is a grandpa and loving it.

Ducke
04-23-2011, 07:38 PM
I think a real important lesson I learned from all of this is that you never know what is going on in someone else's head. You may think someone is doing great and because of that, you might not talk to them and see how they are feeling.

But I think everyone needs outlets to vent.

That is the great thing about these Forums.
We know each other due to our occupation but not personally so we can vent to each other with out any shame or guilt, and we can reply and help reassure without feeling we are imposing or over stepping our friendship.

Ducke
04-23-2011, 07:43 PM
I actually had a friend in High School come up to me and tell me that he was going home and was going to commit suicide. Luckily I was able to get a hold of his brother who then called his parents. He almost succeeded but they got there in time to save him. Now he is a grandpa and loving it.

This is the sign of a true friend, He trusted in you not to let him do it,
You did what was right and you helped save him, By telling you he was going to do it meant he was having second thoughts and he knew that you wouldn't let him go though with it. You can be my Friend any time you sir are a true and caring person.

Graham

Shark1611
04-24-2011, 11:48 PM
Although this post probably doesn't belong in a section called the pursuit of happiness, I think it deals with it in a way.

I got an email last night about a friend who was a musician and had spent most of his life trying to 'make it.' Or break through and reach that thing we all call fame. He was a talented musician and seemed to have many many friends. Yet over last weekend, he put a pistol to his head and killed himself.

Most of today I have been seen posts on websites from people I hadn't heard from in a while all reaching out in shock of this.

As I sit here reading it, I thought to myself, how? With such a large support group, how does one find themselves so isolated? Can you imagine if he had just made a post somewhere or sent an email or made a call and said, 'I am really depressed.' Could someone have then been able to help?

With the internet, news travels fast. We all seem to be more connected now than ever before, yet are we really?

Are we better off now than in the past before the internet?

How has the internet effected us and our support group?

Also when you are a musician, you may have a fan base but are these people part of your support group? Can they help you?

I don't know about any of this yet. I just thought I would throw these thoughts out and see if anyone had any insight.

Thanks

Steve,

I know that I am going through so very hard times right now. Most of my life i was involved in Church. Sunday morning, Sunday nights, Wed nights, etc. Big in the youth, I preached some, teached many age classes and then crash!!

To make it short I moved my family away for a better job. We lived there for about 4 years and then moved back here. Two of my kids had moved on with there lives but the other two were home. We went back to our home Church where so much had changed. The kids were not welcomed back and a lot of our friends had moved away. We just stopped going. I had many issues with one of my kids and reached out for church friends and not one person wanted to get involved. I went to Church today and it started out okay but then I got to thinking about all the pain and disipointment. Just turned off with Church people now. Never thought this Baptist would drop out cold turkey. You talk about isolation and sad. I love my wife and family but one of the best parts of my life is missing. I have tried other Church's but just cannot move on. Deep inside I have so much pain and anger and maybe I am working so hard with lawns and my full time job to keep me from feeling all this. I may go back and delete this in the morning but just have a heavy heart right now. This form has been my Church. The people have not judged me but only wanted to help me. And it has been a blessing.

In closing I think you are right in that is a lot of hurt with folks today but we just push it around and do the best to deal with it because people do not have a clue how to help. It's like a yard with weeds. You mow it and it look nice but two days later and the weeds are back again. It needs to be pulled up by the roots but someone has to do it. Some of us may just be too weak to have the tools to up root it all.

Shark1611
04-25-2011, 12:06 AM
Well as i have metioned on here before, I used to work for a very lg corp. as a manager for 15 years. In this role i had to make decisions all day long, but my answers were all based off of the corporate guide lines, so how much was I really using my brain? Now on the other hand as a small business owner I really have to think things through in more detail, make my own guide lines, in its own way is rewarding, right or wrong it gives you more of a sense of control. For those in a job, or chasing that dream, how much control do they really have, it all depends on someone they most likely dont know from adam saying yes or no, And more often then not no is the answer they get.
I felt i was stuck, could not be happy, hated my job so much seemed endless. Then ine day i just had enough, kids grown, and though i still needed an income i just quite, the after the first month trying to figure out where and what to do, i started my LCO, though time is consumed , i am so much more happy then ever, i feel like i am in control of my own destiny now.

So I really think it changes the mind set in the sense that we are not waiting for our ship to come in, we are swimming out to it.

I hope that is the case with me. I have been a manager since 1992. Before that I owned my own business. I am now 53 are growing my part time lawn care and working my full time job. I love the lawn care and maybe one day I can do it full time. Thanks for your comment.

Shark1611
04-25-2011, 12:16 AM
Depression has always been around
It just we know so much more about it now we are starting to understand that it is an illness and it can be treated.
My Mom suffered from it and from what I understand so did her Father.
It is nothing more then a chemical imbalance in the brain.
I am lucky I saw how it effected my Mom and knew what it was and that it was not something to fear or be embarrassed about. I have stood up to it and am fighting it head on.
Yes I have my bad days were I just don't want to get out of bed ,were the whole world seems to sitting on my shoulders, but I get up I clear my head take my Meds and get on with my life.
I have a great life I have a fantastic Wife who is loving and understanding and supportive of me a wonderful Family that is always there for me and a great group of Friends who really care about me and look out for me.
It just some days for what ever reason I find it hard to see it though the haze in my mind :( but I give my head a shake and there they are. :)
I could go on and on but I will start to get boring.

So Steve how are you feeling.
Has this forum been able to help you with this, Has it helped answer any of those many questions that are bouncing around in your head.:confused:
I hope so.

Ducke how does one go about getting the right meds? Man I hate the feeling I get at times. When I get down I get way down. And yes like you I think about taking my life. I love my kids, wife and family but sometimes life just sucks. I feel no one sees me, no one hears me, no one cares for me. Just pop out a bible verse and think that is going to do it. We great if it help them but I need more. Problem is I don't know what it is that I need. I like it when my family show love to me. I love it when I start on a lawn and then look at the finished work afterwords. But just think about this. Living out at 53 years old and when your funner times in life were in your teen. Because of sports and my personality. I was alway a part of the party.