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Bob91403
04-29-2010, 06:35 PM
Here's an alternative for all of you gasoline hogs. Lehr produces a full line of yard care equipment that runs on propane. They're four stroke, so no more mixing gas and oil. It's a lot cleaner, and since most of the propane used in this country is made here, it reduces our dependency on foreign suppliers. They use common camping propane bottles, and, with an adapter you can refill them from your common large propane grill tank. Go to http://www.golehr.com and check it out. Go green or be left behind choking in your own fumes. :D

picframer
04-29-2010, 07:30 PM
Here's an alternative for all of you gasoline hogs. Lehr produces a full line of yard care equipment that runs on propane. They're four stroke, so no more mixing gas and oil. It's a lot cleaner, and since most of the propane used in this country is made here, it reduces our dependency on foreign suppliers. They use common camping propane bottles, and, with an adapter you can refill them from your common large propane grill tank. Go to http://www.golehr.com and check it out. Go green or be left behind choking in your own fumes. :D

That is only partially true, Propane is made from Natural Gas and Petroleum, Canada is the biggest supplier to the USA of both and the USA imports 67% of it's fuel consumption. I don't consider Propane a Green product, after all it is made from fossil fuel.

Bob91403
04-29-2010, 07:39 PM
Go to the website. You'll find out that we produce 85% here. And, it's a HELL of a lot less polluting.:rolleyes:

markty
04-29-2010, 07:58 PM
What Andy mentioned was that the US imports the materials to produce propane. The US may very well produce 85% of its own propane.

Mark

picframer
04-29-2010, 08:27 PM
I stand by my numbers, I have my Masters in Economics althought that is not what I do today, I keep myself educated.

We run diesel in every mower we have, they all burn clean diesel, low sulfer, when we compare diesel, gasoline, and propane regarding their efficiency, It is in here where diesel is more efficient than gas for a comparable engine displacement; you will get more power from a diesel, and about 20% or more in fuel economy, than a gasoline engine. On the other hand, propane, although it burns very cleanly, gives about a 25% loss of power, and efficiency, under gas.

Bob91403
04-29-2010, 08:28 PM
It's still a HELL of a lot less polluting than gasoline. I understand that it might not reduce our imports of oil. But, if the alternative is gasoline, propane seems like a much better choice. Personally, I'm using battery products from Worx. I'm just saying that there are better choices available. You really don't believe that "clean diesel" bull, do you? That's just a marketing ploy. Diesel is more polluting than gasoline. I know it's a matter of economics. Any large equipment operation MUST use diesel for economy. That's not the people I'm talking to. I'm speaking to the average yard care operations that do work for your average home owner. Not the people who do golf courses.

gonecountry
04-30-2010, 12:17 AM
by all means, if you want to buy me all new propane equipment to replace my gas equipment, be my guest:D

Bob91403
04-30-2010, 02:49 AM
When your old two stroke motor breaks down you might consider replacing it with something that's cleaner and more reliable. How many times have you had to pull on that cord just to start that thing? A lot of people might see this as an edge. When you can offer a cleaner alternative, you will see more people become interested in your service. Or, you can stick with what you're using now and see your customers switch to a service that has more to offer. I'm just saying there's a lot of competition out there. To distinguish yourself as a cleaner alternative is something a lot of customers will find attractive. In any competitive business it is to your advantage to stand out in a crowd. There are a lot of people out there concerned with reducing their carbon footprint. Why not take advantage of it? It makes them feel better about themselves, and gives you more business. Sounds like a win win situation to me. For less than a grand you can get the self propelled mower, the blower/vacuum/mulcher, the expandable trimmer and some attachments. The prices are comparable to gas equipment, start easier, and are more reliable. Sounds like a good investment to me.

Steve
04-30-2010, 12:12 PM
Bob,

Do you do anything to promote this to your customers? Do you leverage this and use it to stand out from competitors?

Bob91403
04-30-2010, 03:28 PM
I'm currently using battery products by Worx. My customers love it. I'm just trying to bring a cleaner alternative than gasoline to the awareness of others here. A lot of people have a problem with the limitations of battery products. I can understand that. I'm just pointing out that there are better alternatives to gasoline available.:)

DenisD
04-30-2010, 09:37 PM
Here's an alternative for all of you gasoline hogs. Lehr produces a full line of yard care equipment that runs on propane. They're four stroke, so no more mixing gas and oil. It's a lot cleaner, and since most of the propane used in this country is made here, it reduces our dependency on foreign suppliers. They use common camping propane bottles, and, with an adapter you can refill them from your common large propane grill tank. Go to http://www.golehr.com and check it out. Go green or be left behind choking in your own fumes. :D


I like useing gas and deisle. The power is there. Besides here in South Louisiana we survive with the oil and gas industry. Without it we would have no work at all. I am not willing to give it up over some so called global warming BS.

gonecountry
05-01-2010, 01:47 AM
I like useing gas and deisle. The power is there. Besides here in South Louisiana we survive with the oil and gas industry. Without it we would have no work at all. I am not willing to give it up over some so called global warming BS.

I agree with that comment. I know that we are trying to save the planet and what not, but this ''GREEN'' movement has become more and more ridiculous. I majored in horticulture and I realize how important trees are and everything, but I think that the technology wraped up in these hybrids and propane powered lawn mowers are ahead of there time. In other words, I believe we are moving to fast with technology, that ever since the green thing started, we have been rushed to develop alternative ways of retrieving fuel. I understand the oil spill is horrible in the gulf. But there are people out there that have families and kids to raise, and people depend on these jobs to keep food on the table. We just can't say ''hey, lets drop everything and switch to propane now!'' God I love this country, because you actually have the choice between the two sources of fuel. aLthough I don't know how long that is going to last the way this country is being run.

Bob91403
05-01-2010, 02:38 AM
As for technology, were not moving fast enough! It is technology that will save us. It's this "I'm just one person, I can't make a difference", complacent attitude that's gotten us into this mess.

Bob91403
05-01-2010, 06:53 AM
All I was trying to do was point out that there are less polluting alternatives available. I agree that this "green" movement has gotten a bit ridiculous. But, a lot of people are hooked on it. I only see the green advantage in my pocket, by being different than all the other services out there. I, personally, have had great success using Worx battery products. The customers in my area like the idea of NO pollution, and a lot less noise. Some people seem to have a problem with using batteries instead of gasoline. I understand their reluctance. And I'm not telling anyone to get rid of their gasoline equipment and switch to propane, even if I think it would make their business more competitive and profitable. I'm just trying to inform people that there is a marketing advantage that goes along with causing less pollution. You might find yourself losing customers to someone who sees the "green" the way I do, it's $$$$$.:D I'm not interested in working more than five days a week. I had to stop advertising because my work schedule is full. I have a customer waiting list that I have not used. I haven't lost an account since I started. I don't undercut anyone's prices, but I could because I use NO gas. It costs me pennies to do a yard. No gas powered operation can undercut my prices, even if they hire illegals and pay them in soda cans, they still have to buy gas.

SuperiorPower
05-01-2010, 09:16 AM
I, personally, have had great success using Worx battery products. The customers in my area like the idea of NO pollution, and a lot less noise. Some people seem to have a problem with using batteries instead of gasoline. I understand their reluctance.

Your operation may work for your business, but what about those people who have a accounts where they mow acres at one account? just how much will they have to charge their customers for LABOR?

Besides, you have me very confused now. First you start out demanding that we use propane because its better of the environment. Now, we find out you don't use them yourself? So now you are telling us that we should use WORX?

StartALawnCareBusiness
05-01-2010, 11:18 AM
I am coming to this thread late but want to make just a couple comments.

I took a trip out to Los Angeles in January. While I was there, I made a special effort to visit Culver City to meet with the folks from Lehr. They believe strongly in their product and its ability to reduce pollution caused by 2-cycle engines. The CEO is a realistic guy. He knows propane engines aren't perfect yet but he's determined to keep stepping in the right direction.

Andy has valid points if we were only discussing non-2cycle gasoline engines. However, Lehr's 2 cycle engines have plenty of torque and seem to produce comparable power to similar sized gas-oil mix burning engines. Propane's exhaust is unquestionably cleaner than typical 2-cycle engines.

The main issue with propane powered string trimmers is the economics (and waste) of having to purchase 1 lb. canisters. It is possible to refill the canisters however, my understanding is that transporting refilled 1 lb. canisters for use in an income producing business is not allowed under D.O.T. standards. If this obstacle can be overcome, the fuel cost of operating propane string trimmers will be dramatically reduced and I think propane 2 cycle engines will quickly replace gas-oil mixture engines in all such equipment.

Bob, I see that you are in Sherman Oaks, CA. Lehr's HQ is less than an hour from you. You should visit their offices to chat with them about their products. Tell them Keith from StartALawnCareBusiness.com sent you.

Granted, propane powered engines are not going to replace gasoline powered equipment in the very near future. However, in the long run, I believe propane will eventually replace gasoline as the fuel of choice in the lawn care industry due to increasingly restrictive air pollution limits.

Keith
Start A Lawn Care Business
www.StartALawnCareBusiness.com (http://www.StartALawnCareBusiness.com)


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SuperiorPower
05-01-2010, 02:47 PM
Keith,

Don't get me wrong, I am all for good clean/inexpensive fueled machines. It is simply that Bob is making claims he can't back up. As far as the Lehr equipment, I can think of several downsides on the Lehr propane equipment...

-Very limited consumer warranty (from what VERY little info their website provides),
-Commercial use is most likely not covered by the warranty,
-Still requires oil, so its not really that much less messy,
-If the tank connection leaks when you store the trimmer in an attached garage it could be deadly (you do the math),
-They conveniently provide very limited specs on their website, so how do we know what the HP/Torque is?
-The provide these machines to Craftsman which really gives them a lot of credibility (NOT!),
-Fuel is much harder to come by,
-From my understanding they are made in China, Exactly where I want my commercial "I need this every day" machines to be manufactured,
-And finally..... Ummm, who is going to service them????

I am currently waiting for a reply from Lehr to cover some of these topics. If the machines were made by a reputable commercial manufacturer I might respect them. After closely perusing their website I am not convinced that these are the answer for a commercial user.

One problem I see being forever a problem is the tank issue. I know from experience, these small tanks will sometimes just quit taking refills. I am FAR from being convinced that propane like this is as good of an idea as they make it out to be.

We shall see............

Bob91403
05-01-2010, 04:30 PM
The warranty is 2yrs., 3yrs. on the carb. That seems about average. As for commercial usage, not many companies cover that anyway. Do you think they'll ask you? Would you say "YES" if they did? As for leakage, do you store your gasoline in an open container? Do you just shut off your gas grill from the front and leave pressure on the hose causing it to fatigue? You're supposed to, from all manufacturers instructions, let it run and shut it off from the tank. Obviously you don't store them with the canisters attached. If they did leak, it takes a pretty specific gas to air ratio to be ignitable. Still safer than gasoline. Fuel hard to come by? I don't understand that statement, at all. I get my propane from my local equipment rental yard. It's cheaper to have my grill tanks refilled than swap then at the local supermarket. China, really? Have you ever tried not to buy anything from China? Yes, they make a lot of crap. They also have some very excellent manufacturing facilities. It's a matter of labor costs. It used to be they etched glass in Oregon, then it was in Spain, then it went to Turkey. It didn't matter that they had to ship the glass there, it was wherever they could get the lowest labor costs. Lehr in Los Angeles services them. And, they need a lot less service than any gasoline two stroke engine. As for transportation, I've never seen a car with DOT on it, nor do I believe any local police know or care. As for oil, they are four stoke, not two. The oil is for lubrication, not for burning. Yes, I currently use WORX battery products for my service. A lot of people here have voiced poor opinions of battery products. I understand that, they do have their limitations. It's been almost a year now and I've had no problems. I only wanted to point out that there are cleaner alternatives to gasoline available, for those who don't like the battery alternative. If you've got golf courses to mow, try making your own bio-diesel. It's a simple process, and fuel can be pretty cheap if you get it from your local fry restaurant. Why do I bother? I'm trying to clue people in on a marketing advantage here. Some will understand what I'm saying, they will be the ones who take customers away from those who don't. I have nothing more to say on the matter.:p

picframer
05-01-2010, 09:34 PM
I am with Eli,

How much pollution is generated in the making of the propane and go back to how the ingredients were and are being produced.

I don't buy the battery operated equipment and how it is saving the environment, it's nothing more than a marketing twist, consider from day one what is required to make that battery, then when it's done what happens to it and what is the impact to the environment?

I'm on the side of clean diesel, I have researched this to death and it is a fact, my tractors and mowers will run on vegetable oil for goodness sake, you can't get much better than that, I run fish oil in them often no issues at all.

The marketing for this propane company needs a lot of help, they boast not having to go to the gas station and saving money, you have to go somewhere to buy the canisters, it simply costs more and no one around the area I live sells or services them so do I set home for a week or let some of my staff sit home when there is an issue with the equipment.

I am all for the environment, my issue is the tunnel vision of some people trying to push an idea, do the research first.

SuperiorPower
05-03-2010, 12:40 PM
The warranty is 2yrs., 3yrs. on the carb. That seems about average. As for commercial usage, not many companies cover that anyway. Do you think they'll ask you? Would you say "YES" if they did? As for leakage, do you store your gasoline in an open container? Do you just shut off your gas grill from the front and leave pressure on the hose causing it to fatigue? You're supposed to, from all manufacturers instructions, let it run and shut it off from the tank. Obviously you don't store them with the canisters attached. If they did leak, it takes a pretty specific gas to air ratio to be ignitable. Still safer than gasoline. Fuel hard to come by? I don't understand that statement, at all. I get my propane from my local equipment rental yard. It's cheaper to have my grill tanks refilled than swap then at the local supermarket. China, really? Have you ever tried not to buy anything from China? Yes, they make a lot of crap. They also have some very excellent manufacturing facilities. It's a matter of labor costs. It used to be they etched glass in Oregon, then it was in Spain, then it went to Turkey. It didn't matter that they had to ship the glass there, it was wherever they could get the lowest labor costs. Lehr in Los Angeles services them. And, they need a lot less service than any gasoline two stroke engine. As for transportation, I've never seen a car with DOT on it, nor do I believe any local police know or care. As for oil, they are four stoke, not two. The oil is for lubrication, not for burning. Yes, I currently use WORX battery products for my service. A lot of people here have voiced poor opinions of battery products. I understand that, they do have their limitations. It's been almost a year now and I've had no problems. I only wanted to point out that there are cleaner alternatives to gasoline available, for those who don't like the battery alternative. If you've got golf courses to mow, try making your own bio-diesel. It's a simple process, and fuel can be pretty cheap if you get it from your local fry restaurant. Why do I bother? I'm trying to clue people in on a marketing advantage here. Some will understand what I'm saying, they will be the ones who take customers away from those who don't. I have nothing more to say on the matter.:p

All I can say is you must be ill-informed....

So you think 2 years consumer and 0 years commercial is standard? It may be except for some of these companies...

Kawasaki Trimmers (http://www.kawpowr.com/leading_edge.aspx) (5 years consumer, 2 commercial)
Tanaka Trimmers (http://www.tanaka-usa.com/index.php?section=92) (7 years consumer, 2 commercial),
Shindaiwa Trimmers (http://www.shindaiwa.com/usa/en/_docs/Shindaiwa_2010_Warranty_Statement.pdf) (2 years each),
Stihl Trimmers (http://www.stihlusa.com/STIHLInc_LimitedWarranty_10.09.pdf) (2 years each on trimmers),
Echo Trimmers (http://www.echo-usa.com/5year/) (5 year consumer, 2 commercial),
Redmax Trimmers (http://www.redmax.com/files/Zenoah/RedMax/Warranty%20Time%20&%20Statement%201-09.pdf) (2/2, with a few model exceptions).

If I understand your question correctly you are asking if they would ask if the machine was used commercially. If that is your question, I would say of course they will. If the end user would lie about it I really think I would most likely tell them to walk out the door and NEVER come back. A liar is about the lowest form of life. If they will lie about something like that I don't think I can trust them for ANYTHING.... I fear this sheds some light on character..

As for leakage, do you store your gasoline in an open container? Of course not! (but I am not sure how this applies to this conversation!)

Do you just shut off your gas grill from the front and leave pressure on the hose causing it to fatigue? You're supposed to, from all manufacturers instructions, let it run and shut it off from the tank. Obviously you don't store them with the canisters attached. I currently don't have a gas grill but, no, I wouldn't leave the tank on, however, would YOU (this is not about me but about you) really take the cannister off the trimmer every night?!?!?! And is that the manufacturer's instructions? Or are you trying to blow smoke up our a** again?

Fuel hard to come by? I don't understand that statement, at all. I get my propane from my local equipment rental yard. It's cheaper to have my grill tanks refilled than swap then at the local supermarket. I think Andy sufficiently answered this and I completely agree...

China, really? Have you ever tried not to buy anything from China? Yes, they make a lot of crap. They also have some very excellent manufacturing facilities. It's a matter of labor costs. I have tried not buying commercial power equipment that is made in China. Matter of fact, tell me of a single brand of commercial power equipment that is good quality. the Kohler Courage is made in China. And even though it is at a Kohler factory, the quality shows and it is a consumer engine at best. Kohler is not known to be a "consumer" engine. Yet, this model ended up being nothing more than a consumer quality.

It used to be they etched glass in Oregon, then it was in Spain, then it went to Turkey. It didn't matter that they had to ship the glass there, it was wherever they could get the lowest labor costs. Thanks for this info on glass. I really needed to know that but now I will go back to talking about power equipment.

Lehr in Los Angeles services them. And, they need a lot less service than any gasoline two stroke engine. Ok, so I live in the midwest....

"Hi, this is Joe's Super Mow from here in the midwest and my Lehr trimmer just quit. I am going to pay to UPS it to your office in Los Angeles. I use it every day commercially. I think it should be covered under warranty so fix it for free. Please fix it and UPS it back to me for free. I need it bad."

How do you think this would go over?

Furthermore, would you really send it all the way back there just to have a tune up done on it (yes, these trimmers will need a tune up just like any other internal combustion engine).

As for transportation, I've never seen a car with DOT on it, nor do I believe any local police know or care. Really?! I happen to work in Law Enforcement full time. Let me just say, if I stopped you and I found out you were transporting EXPLOSIVE/HAZMAT products (like propane) without proper containers, etc, I would bring the full force of Hell down on you. Do you wanna question that anymore? How about I contact some folks in Cali about your practices???? But then again, I doubt the hyper vigilant global warming nuts in Cali would care that you aren't following their rules....

As for oil, they are four stoke, not two. The oil is for lubrication, not for burning. Ok, genius, I fully understand all that. After all, I have been servicing 2 and 4 cycle engines for 15+ years. But my point is that you still have to drain, refill, and frequently check the oil (level). That is usually messy. Especially with a small machine like that. I doubt the dusty environment will cause any oil to attract to the machine.. There is a lot more I could say here about keeping it clean and that affecting emissions but I will leave that alone.....

Yes, I currently use WORX battery products for my service. A lot of people here have voiced poor opinions of battery products. I understand that, they do have their limitations. It's been almost a year now and I've had no problems. You know, I have no problem with using battery products (I use cordless tools daily in the shop). But for someone who is screaming global warming and then cling to battery power tools is kinda absurd... Unless I am misinformed (and if so, please correctly inform me with PROOF, not opinion), batteries are VERY "DIRTY" to manufacture. Read this (http://lawnmowerforum.superiorpowerequip.com/index.php/topic,225.0.html).

I only wanted to point out that there are cleaner alternatives to gasoline available, for those who don't like the battery alternative. If you've got golf courses to mow, try making your own bio-diesel. It's a simple process, and fuel can be pretty cheap if you get it from your local fry restaurant. Why do I bother? I'm trying to clue people in on a marketing advantage here. Some will understand what I'm saying, they will be the ones who take customers away from those who don't.

You know, the way I look at it, if you know that global warming is a hoax and you market for it, you are now a liar.... I think you know where I stand on that issue.

But, I am still waiting for your proof that global warming exists... (Though I am wondering where that post went to (I could just swear I made a post about that). Steve?)

Bob91403
05-04-2010, 06:28 AM
Keith, it is not against DOT regulations to transport refilled tanks for commercial purpose. There is no federal (U.S.) constraint whatsoever on refilling a tank, nor for that matter on transporting such a tank where ever you want (provided it is not a federally-controlled road with restrictions on hazardous materials, which is a section of the CFR that nobody here has bothered to point out). There could not possibly ever be any such global constraint on your right to do so under the 10th Amendment. The cited regulations and laws deal specifically with transport in commerce, that is, transport across state lines for the purpose of selling the tank or using them in support of a commercial enterprise (and, under several federal court cases dating back to the 1930s, commercial transport on federally controlled roads - the so-called "implied commerce" argument that gave us the FDA and EPA). The second item is this talk about it being illegal to transport, even in commerce, REFILLED tanks. That is nonsense. It is not illegal to transport a refilled tank, it is illegal to commercially transport improperly LABELED tanks - if you read the citation for 49 U.S.C. 5124 (that's the one with the prison sentences and all) you'll see that it establishes penalties for violation of 21 U.S.C. 5104. Section 5104, in turn, is not a REFILLING statue, it is a LABELING statue. The moment you refill a tank you may or may not have created a fire hazard, but you a very definitely created a mislabeled product - and that's what is illegal. You can no more go to federal prison for refilling or even transporting your own tanks than you can for removing the tag from your pillows (another one of these "commerce" urban myths).

Bob91403
05-04-2010, 06:56 AM
Did you confirm that the warranty does not cover commercial use? I've never had a problem finding propane. Who tunes up your equipment? I'm sure any lawnmower shop could handle it. You work in law enforcement full time? So, yard care is just a hobby? Yet you seem to know very little about the legality of transporting propane. You've been working with yard care products for so long, I'm sure you could tune them. Burning oil in a two stroke motor is very dirty, compared to the lubrication of a four stroke. If you used a synthetic oil I'm sure you'd have a very long time between changes. How does checking the oil level make a mess? You'd have to be very clumsy. Your link about batteries being dirty talked about Toyota using flowers to clean the air in their plant, I didn't see anything about batteries being dirty. You remind me of a guy who insisted that bicycles weren't "green" because of how dirty it was to make one. Lithium batteries are environmentally sound. Disposal of any battery, or oil for that matter is sound if done so responsibly. As for global warming, you look in to that for yourself. I know it's a fact. I won't waste my time trying to educate someone who thinks the world is flat.:rolleyes:

Bob91403
05-04-2010, 08:18 AM
From SuperiorPower, "You know, the way I look at it, if you know that global warming is a hoax and you market for it, you are now a liar.... I think you know where I stand on that issue."


Please don't put words in my mouth. I NEVER said it was a hoax! I don't appreciate being called a liar. Do you have to resort to rudeness and name calling to support your position?

SuperiorPower
05-05-2010, 12:32 PM
Did you confirm that the warranty does not cover commercial use? I've never had a problem finding propane. Who tunes up your equipment? I'm sure any lawnmower shop could handle it. You work in law enforcement full time? So, yard care is just a hobby? Yet you seem to know very little about the legality of transporting propane. You've been working with yard care products for so long, I'm sure you could tune them. Burning oil in a two stroke motor is very dirty, compared to the lubrication of a four stroke. If you used a synthetic oil I'm sure you'd have a very long time between changes. How does checking the oil level make a mess? You'd have to be very clumsy. Your link about batteries being dirty talked about Toyota using flowers to clean the air in their plant, I didn't see anything about batteries being dirty. You remind me of a guy who insisted that bicycles weren't "green" because of how dirty it was to make one. Lithium batteries are environmentally sound. Disposal of any battery, or oil for that matter is sound if done so responsibly. As for global warming, you look in to that for yourself. I know it's a fact. I won't waste my time trying to educate someone who thinks the world is flat.:rolleyes:

Bob, you must not be very observant (look at my signature and you will know why I say that). I am not involved in yard care. I happen to be the shop that tunes up power equipment. The problem is, getting the parts to tune up these off brands. Made in China machines = not worth fixing. Besides, YOU said YOURSELF that these machines needed to be sent to LEHR. Now you changed your story when you realize how ridiculous this is...

My experience servicing power equipment for the past 15+ years is why I know a bit about warranties and what will/will not be covered. And, I have seen many people who have used engines all their life but could not tune one up to save their life. Besides, now, if you do, and don't use correct replacement parts you can be fined $5,000-$10,000 PER VIOLATION.

No, I have not confirmed what the warranty covers. They have not bothered to answer my question. Wonder why.... As far as using synthetic oil, some manufacturers permit the use of synthetic oil but stress that it is still necessary to change the oil at the same intervals. Don't take shortcuts... My point of changing and checking oil is that oil will almost invariably spill/leak a drop or two (or just a film) which will attract dirt/dust. This causes emissions issues themselves (according to manufacturers themselves in their own service update schools). That is a rather lengthy topic and like I said before, I won't go into it here and now.

My point about the Toyota article is that their factory is "dirty" because of the battery factor. Batteries are dirty to manufacture. Batteries don't last so very long and thus are a very dirty option. Sure you can recycle them. But do you really think that the entire recycle process is CLEAN and GREEN?!?!?!?! And in fact, I have argued on this very forum that bicycles are not clean and green!! And it happens that it is me whom you are referring to!! check out the last several posts here (http://www.gopherforum.com/showthread.php?t=9592&page=2) and then read this (http://www.gopherforum.com/showthread.php?t=5807&).

Darn your luck; you keep bumping into me... :D ROFL!

As for global warming, you look in to that for yourself. I know it's a fact. I won't waste my time trying to educate someone who thinks the world is flat.:rolleyes: I think you mean like the fact that the global temperature has always fluctuated up and down. Also the fact that during the last 10+ years the temps have actually been falling. That is why they no longer say "global warming". It is now "climate change" because the climate has always fluctuated up and down. Heck, look at the last 100 years and you will know it is true.